I still think Jon is an elite warrior. He just never fought in tourneys or any well known battles that hostorians would talk about. He's been a beast in every battle we've seen him in
He beat the doors off the mountain. Had he not been boasting out of vengeance, the mountain would've never touched him. They weren't even close
not really though. Ned told people it was Howland. Oberyn was a great fighter, but he was also cocky as fuck. his cockiness got him killed against the Mountain. why should he get a pass on his flaws?
Oberyn used a polearm. None of the swordsmen would even touch him in combat. Even with a shield they can't close the gap quick enough. Unless this fight happened in a phone booth, Oberyn is gonna win..
His cockiness didn't get him killed. Vengeance did. I prefer my 3v3 hypothetical to be without personal agendas in the battle. Poison is part of his weapon. He killed the mountain no matter how you spin it
I honestly don't know what your argument is. Oberyn was a far superior warrior than The Mountain. His flaws are obvious and he died to the mountain, but to sit here and act like it was even a close fight is hilarious. He died because he was standing over his body, "you don't get to die yet. Not until you confess." Had it been a random battle. Oberyn would've danced around, got his flawless victory, then fucked his girl
my point is upsets happen. on paper Oberyn was better, but he lost. and he was always crazy. sure vengeance was the specific thing in this fight with the Mountain, but he did crazy shit all the time this wasn't out of character.
Feel like the Hound is being undervalued. He stood toe to toe with the Mountain. Feel like he could hold his own against Robert. He might not win but he's not gonna go down easy.
Have to agree with 47 on this one. The only reason Oberyn lost was because he was trying to get a confession. If he was merely going for the win, it was over.
Beaten by Mance Rayder (who was under a glamour that threw him off a bit, but still). "He can totally take a prime Jaime you guys!"
Jon also hasn't hit his prime yet and he's got as much if not more actual battle experience than Jaime. Not saying he's winning but he won't go down easy.
We aren't projecting in this scenario. It's each fighter at their best and Jon just hasn't gotten there yet. Not his fault but that's the circumstance. He's a teenager and it would be quick, I think. But we are arguing fiction here so it's anything we want it to be.
In the books Jon would have lost to Qhorin Halfhand if not for Ghost and Qhorin knowing that Jon being taken in by the wildlings was the only chance they had at either of them surviving. Also, Mance Rayder basically kicked Jon Snow's ass with blunted tourney swords while glamoured to look like Rattleshirt. Jon thought that maybe with Longclaw he would have had a chance, but with even weaponry he was worked over. After that, Jon did take his training to a new level, but it still seems like Jon is a tier below some of these elite guys.
Well Jon is clearly a better warrior in the show than book, so I guess that's another thing to consider.
I think Prime Robert would destroy both the Mountain and Hound with relative ease. Robert wouldn't be overwhelmed by the Cleganes' strength like most men, and he was also highly trained by the Arryn family, being of noble birth. If the fight went longer than a few blows, Robert wouldn't have much trouble finding an opening in either Clegane brother's technique and exploiting it.
We probably should have distinguished this battle to either book knowledge or show knowledge. Book Robert was huge, show Robert was not much taller than Ned and probably wouldn't have been near as strong as the Mountain even in his prime.
I put little stock in the casting for Robert. They had to cast based on acting and facial looks far more than size. You don't see Robert standing full-length much in the show other than to exhibit how fat he'd gotten by that point. The shortness of the actor is of little consequence to me. We know Robert's history. We know that gods he was strong then. He was a highly trained warrior with the size and strength to wield a fucking war hammer and crush Rhaegar's chest in with it after fighting through an army to get to him. I would give the Cleganes very little chance against him.
You're way underselling the Mountain and thus the Hound. The Mountain is no normal man and the Hound stood toe to toe with him. To think that either would fall easily to Robert is just wrong imo. Not to mention, it's not like these guys weren't trained knights. Besides, Dayne is killing everyone.
I'm not sure "very little chance" is accurate given both Cleganes are widely feared and respected, but I think Prime Robert could handle both.
It had a skinny pink shaft topped by a mushroom shaped head. Pretty standard hammer. I'm not sure I could pick my own out from a line up in all honesty.
The Cleganes weren't of noble birth, so there's no way they were nearly as trained as Robert was. And I do think Robert handles the brothers Clegane with relative ease, as I said. But it's okay that we disagree. That's what this thread—which I'm enjoying thoroughly—is for.
I always thought the fan art depicting him with basically a mildly oversized black and decker product were hilarious
If that were all steel than it would be over 50lbs. That's a heavy ass weapon to wield and swing in combat
I don't think we should be taking replicas sold on GRRM's website as canon. hopefully we get to see it in action at some point in a prequel or Bran dream.
I'll take the fact that it smashed Rhaegar's chest in through his armor as a more reliable metric than fan art.