So I'm starting to get more into watching soccer, but I'm still not at the point where I wouldn't embarrass myself trying to talk about actual games with avid fans. Just watching the guy play and the stats he's putting up: Where does the guy rank in terms of soccer players all time? The stats he's putting up are unbelievable and he just seems to mess with people on the field.
It's a near certainty that he'll go down as the most successful club player ever but he hasn't been good on the international scene so it's debatable. It really doesn't matter what he does at Barca at this point, he's done it all, he needs success with Argentina or he'll never get that Michael Jordan/Wayne Gretzky label of clearly the best ever.
His international success will determine his place among the best ever. Like Gunners said he has pretty much achieved everything at a club level and he doesnt seem to be slowing down at all. He will probably hold most club level records soon enough. His failure with Argentina has been pretty well documented though. I mean not winning Copa America at home was a huge failure IMO
He's not bad. Inferior international goal record to Robbie Keane so has a bit of work to do to pass him out yet.
international failure is a testament to how good xavi and iniesta are if you ask me. then again something just seems off when he plays for argentina, he was shanking free kicks 30 yards over the goal in the copa america.
International play is extremely overrated by Americans. Playing in La Liga has inflated his statistics (and Ronaldo) dramatically, but his success in the Champions League to this point in this career is enough to consider him an all time great. And he isn't the most successful club player ever, gunners
how is international play overrated by americans yo? world cup would be what i chose if i could win one trophy.
what makes you think thats different from everybody else? dont know how i would figure out how other countries feel but i do know the world cup is a huge deal everywhere
I said he will be and I stick by that. Agree that la liga is a joke. Not sure how international play is overrated. The GOAT player should be able to do it for both club and country.
I really just meant in terms of judging someone like Messi. Look at the other responses in this thread- The guy holds the Champions League scoring record and is the all time leading scorer for a top 5 all time club before he's 25 BUT he hasn't done it with Argentina.
I have no idea what shocker is even arguing. Are you saying he should have to do it with Argentina or he shouldn't?
i see your point and he is already a top 5 all time player if he never plays again but i do think international play should have at least something to do with his legacy. surely he will have SOME success internationally considering how young he is and the talent argentina has. it would be a little different if he was from a country that sucked
I think what he's doing with Barcelona is enough if he continues at this rate. I do hate him though and am willing to fist fight anyone in this thread
then it would be understandable that he did not have international success and it would not count for their legacy as much as it does with messi.
If Xavi/Iniesta make Messi then Giggs/Scholes/Rooney/Xabi/Ozil make Ronaldo right. With the talent on Argentina and Portugal, there is zero excuse to why both have under-achieved, they just haven't taken the chances put in front of them. They don't play for Bhutan so the point is moot.
There's so much that goes into the international team. Way less time playing together (unless you play for Spain/Barcelona), club team is first and foremost considering they pay your bills and all, in reality you only get a few legitimate cracks in your career at the international level (and when Maradona is your coach, it's somewhat of a joke). Really tough to say. Champions League should be the #1 barometer, then league, then international. Because of several factors I think international play should be lower down in consideration.
The World Cup title is the greatest prize the game has, don't care about the excuses, it's a measure of true greatness.Champions league is without a doubt a measure of greatness as well and Messi has only conquered 1 of the 2 Messi will without a doubt be in the conversation for #1 ever and have a strong case if he just continues what he's doing but he'll never get that clearly the best ever label unless he starts showing it for Argentina.
Whole picture bud, quit being your typical fucktard self. Cruyff was also an absolute badass for the Dutch, they just came up short. He made a final and was named player of the tournament in 74 or 76. Messi doesn't need to win the World Cup imo(sure some believe he will), he just has to play up to his ability in at least a few major tournaments.
Not sure Argentina will have the defenders to win a WC, and Argentina has a whole, just struggles with bigger and more athletic teams because Argentina isn't much of either.
never taken the time to really think out a top 10 but there are names that would obviously be in it like cruyff, maradona, pele, ronaldo (brazilian) that im not sure if messi has surpassed or not
Pele Zidane Beckenbauer Cruyff Maradona Ronaldo Gerd Müller Zico 9 and 10. I don't fucking know These are in no particular order but I'd say Zidane, Pele, Maradona, Beckenbauer are top 4. I wanted to list Bergkamp or Henry but they just don't have the stats to compare. Both phenomenal players, regardless. In terms of guys today that could join that group, I'd say it's down to Xavi, Messi, Ronaldo, Ibrahimovic, Beckham, and Scholes.
Really hope you're kidding on Beckham and Ibra. While Messi leads the goal tally this year in CL, Ibra is throwing his hat into the offsides and fouls committed rings.
Gerd Muller has always been ridiculously underrated. Not sure if it's because it was for West Germany but never seems to get any mention when talking about the top players. He has a 3 peat of European Cups, 66 goals in 74 European Cup games, 68 goals in 62 international games, 400 goals for Bayern, 14 WC goals, was German leading scorer like 8 times, has a World Cup title and a Euros title. Only seen a few DVD highlights but on paper he has few equals. My top 10 would be Pele Muller Maradona Zidane Messi Cruyff Beckenbauer The real Ronaldo Maldini Zico The other Ronaldo is the only current player I can see making the list.