Here's the thing, Vince has never known how to book a heel champion. People talk about how good the booking was in the old days, but in the old (WWF) days, the champ was a babyface for long stretches; the title was only ever put on a heel as a transition. The exception is the one-of-a-kind Superstar Billy Graham. Look at the list of HEEL champs Vince has had and you see a wasteland of superstars who were booked like scrubs to keep the (non-champ) top babyface looking good. Vince's territory has always been about a babyface champ that's the focal point. Whenever he decides to book around a heel champ, he exposes his greatest weakness as a booker. Spoiler: list of heel champs Ivan Koloff - transitional champ, 21 days Stan Stasiak - transitional champ, 9 days Billy Graham - originally a transitional champ but was so popular they stuck with him (exception to the rule #1), 300 days Iron Sheik - transitional champ, 30 days Andre the Giant - storyline purposes, immediately stripped Randy Savage - became a heel just before Mania/transitional, a few months Sgt. Slaughter - transitional champ, 60 days Undertaker - storyline purposes, immediately stripped Ric Flair - booked weakly for 77 days. Flair as champ in NWA was always "he's a cheater who can beat you straight up if he wanted to, but chooses to cheat." In WWF he was just a cheater and was never presented as a legit threat. Yokozuna - exception to the rule #2. He was a monster and was booked accordingly, although he did still have classic Vince moments, like winning his biggest title defense to date by DQ Bob Backlund - transitional champ, 3 days Sycho Sid - eh, he had a two month reign and lost the title back to the guy he beat. he didn't really do anything good or bad, other than Bret made him look like a million bucks onthe December PPV. Let's call him exception #3 Sycho Sid again - transitional champ, 1 month Kane - storyline purposes, lost the next night The Rock - see below The Rock again - see below The Rock again (Russo, man) - Rock traded the belt with Mankind but his entire first reign was just to build him up between Survivor Series and Mania, in order to lose it to Austin. That's fine (heels are bred to lose eventually). He was booked pretty well (despite losing the title a few times before dropping it to Austin). Exception #4 Triple H - did nothing for the month he had the belt, 22 days Vince McMahon - Storyline purposes, vacated immediately Triple H - booked like a stooge, classic Vince heel champ booking. Never again would Triple H let it happen though. From here on out his title reigns would feature him dominating. But that's politics and not booking, so it doesn't count. 2nd reign lasted 50 days Kurt Angle - booked like a chump, 126 days Steve Austin - The great exception. The only time since Graham where Vince's heel champ was also the main focal point of the show. He was THE star, while also being a heel champ. 175 day reign was all as a heel. He lost and won the title back from Angle but a month later 9|11 happened and they made him a babyface again Chris Jericho - lol, 98 days of terrible terrible booking Undertaker - transitional champ (along with the Rock), 60 days Brock Lesnar - doesn't count as Heyman was booking Smackdown at the time, 84 days of dominance JBL - a long (280 day) reign wherein he looked like a midcard cheater who lucked into the belt on account of Eddie losing 50 gallons of blood and kept fluke-retaining it in match after match Edge - storyline purposes, lost on his next PPV defense back to Cena Edge again - booked like a chump for 80 days before losing it back to Cena Randy Orton - storyline purposes, lost immediately Randy Orton again - booked better than most (this was bald head, sexual assault, punt people to death Randy), but still made to look like Triple H's shoe scrubber whenever they tangled. 200 days Edge - transitional champ, 21 days Randy Orton - transitional champ, 42 days Randy Orton again - transitional champ, 90 days I dunno, I think Randy Orton again...2009 was a terrible year. I think there's another month long reign somewhere in the latter part of that year. Sheamus - won the belt on a fluke, held it like a chump, lost it back 2 months later Batista - transitional champ (but what great one he was; fat girls and sunglasses Batista), 30 days Randy Orton - transitional champ, 2 months The Miz - a little Jericho a little JBL. Originally planned on a short reign that Vince fell in love with, while still booking him like a turd Alberto Del Rio - storyline purposes, 1 month CM Punk - like Savage, turned heel later in his run, but the whole thing was a big transition to the Rock. He looked average but never beat any top guy cleanly. hashtag 434 days Randy Orton - storyline purposes, 1 month Randy Orton again - booked like a lackey Brock Lesnar - part time, doesn't count, 200 days Seth Rollins - booked like a loser, 200 days Sheamus - lol, 20 days Triple H - part time, doesn't count, 70 days Seth Rollins, transitional champ, lost immediately Kevin Owens (Raw champ) - lost a cage match to a non-champ babyface that Vince is in love with. So the exceptions (not counting the son-in-law) have been Superstar Billy Graham, Yokozuna, Sycho Sid for two months, Rock, Steve Austin and a couple part-timers. Five guys, three of whom are once in a generation talent whose starpower basically superseded any bad booking. I stand by my original position: Vince doesn't know how to book a heel champ...or at least, doesn't want to book them to be strong). Once a decade he has a heel champ go on a tear, but that's about it. The rest of the time they look like scrubs.
RAW is going to continue to suck ass with Steph and Vince running the show. All the shit we hated about RAW is still there. Its a shame because they toss IWC guys at the top to cover its flaws but under the top gloss the product is the same awful shit. 3 hours on RAW and nearly 2 months to build up the Cruiserweights and they next to nothing to build up the characters. They just put on a fatal 4 way with zero hype and zero build that was giving a title match to the current champion. Oh and they didn't even bring up the fucking champion so people could see him in person. I like Mic but nothing say's "we don't give a fuck" like a GM who can't even remember his lines to the promo introducing these guys. He fucked up so bad he had to pull out his bullet points... fuck a 10 man tag just because... woof Women's division that is pushing Bayley by having her pinned clean on back to back weeks Tag Division that is a flat out joke. No one is booked serious everyone is a comedy act. What the fuck is Seth Rollins??? Crying like a bitch to Steph backstage but cocky baby in ring Why is Roman/Rusev being booked like the top of the card when its for the US title? This isn't even the first PPV that they have done this. They booked Roman/Rusev at the top leading into Summerslam. The match took place 2nd from the top. WTF Roman is hated... so having Rollins save the face getting beat down in the middle of the ring doesn't work. Do you not hear him getting shit on weekly? How does this make any sense to anyone calling the shots. Speaking of world title being booked like shit (see CM Punk a few years back) Looks like Owens is going to get the same treatment. Losing to Roman? Why? Then how does he get his heat back after the loss? being a cheerleader for Rusev? Sigh... On paper the names for RAW are amazing. But the creative for the show is fucking awful. 2 months in and Smackdown has gained viewership and last week had higher ratings.
The main event of RAW running up to Clash of Champions involves 2 heels, a tweener who is booked and acts like a heel, and a face everyone hates. Of course its failing. Also a huge problem I have with RAW is that Steph and Foley are on TV all the fucking time. Regal rarely shows up on NXT, Shane and Bryant take a back seat to the wrestlers on Smackdown, yet if you asked someone who didn't know better who the show was about, I'm guessing they'd say Stephanie McMahon.
On his best day Vince is simply out of touch. On his worst he's out of his mind. Raw is what it has been for years, only now with less talent to pad the three hour run time. Even with a third of the roster, Smackdown is thriving only because Vince isn't micromanaging everything.
Bryan and Dave had good points on the cruiserweights this morning. The actual match was good, but it's hard for one guy to get over in that kind of match. Anyway, it was treated just like the rest of Raw, which is terribly corporate, overly brand-centric and lacking in authenticity. Part of what got the CWC over was it was treated differently. It was presented differently, the announcers were different, motivations were different. You know what really helped the cruiserweights stand apart in WCW? Mike Tenay. He treated them differently and kind of their own special thing. Raw stripped that all away. I think they guys can get over because they're really talented, but what should be an easy path is now going up-hill. Last night, they were just another segment.
Cedric is amazing... by far my favorite cruiserweight WWE has right now. His finisher is fantastic. Worked his ass off that match. Probably the only guy in that match that got himself over
I'm behind a bit but Crews still is so bland to me. Love him in the ring but he has no story really. No purpose. He's just a super positive guy who smiles a lot.
So how long until Vince panics at Smackdown being better than Raw and plucks all the top talent (performers and backstage) over to Raw like he did when Heyman was running things in the early 00's?
Probably a few more months before we reach that point. My guess is he puts the belt on Roman because he will save the ratings
So with ratings down - is the bridge really that burned between CM Punk and the WWE that they wouldnt realize what is best for business? I mean, his UFC PPV buys were seriously eye-popping.
You are right the WWE has always been a babyface company... Problem is Vince has no idea how to build/push a baby face for this generation.
dont remember off top of my head but it was the highest PPV buy for any non McGregor/Ronda/Brock fight in years. And the rest of the card cant be pointed to as the draw either.
WWE really fucked themselves by splitting divisions in the draft. You want to set apart both shows have them feature different things. You can only see tags and women on RAW You can only see CW on Smackdown. What they did was give the fans another reason to tune out of RAW. Because Smackdown is superior in every way 2 months into the split.
gave me a reason to tune out of both. raw sucks but has the stars I like. smackdown is better but has few people I give a shit about. boom, don't watch either the last few weeks and canceled my network sub.
Hopefully Vince turns over RAW to Haitch and Ryan Ward.... lol, nevermind you'll to take the company from his cold, dead hands.
Also, thanks again Vince "WWE is apparently going to tone down the cruiserweights on Monday Night Raw, so they aren't doing as many big flips and high spots."
Jesus. The only explanation there is that it makes Roman look bad. Can't have all these good wrestlers out there doing things Roman can't do.
In short, Smackdown is being booked clearly differently from Raw. The presentation is better. Different guys are getting pushes, etc. I posted a few pages back, but Smackdown is being booked like the old NWA/WCW or current NXT. Raw is being booked like the same old shit we have seen for over a decade.
Right, but I think the premise that Vince is some sort of control freak who screws everything up in his company on its biggest show, but then has essentially nothing to do with the live 2-hour show that is also hugely important to his company that is successful, is kind of absurd. Maybe you're right and Vince just sits back and lets everyone else run the show on Tuesdays, but I highly doubt it. More likely, Smackdown just has better people around him with better ideas, and they're a little more willing to do a traditional wrestling show on a Tuesday than they are on Monday with the company's signature show.
For me, its based on past interviews with Paul Heyman and Taz saying as much. Granted that was 10+ years ago, but based on his history and reputation, I dont think anything has changed.
Vince has always viewed Smackdown as the B show. Raw is the bread and butter of the company. As Raw goes, so goes WWF/E. It's been that way since around 1997. Smackdown will never get Vince's focus. He spends his tuesday prepping for next week's Raw. In short, he has no problem leaving SD to its head writer, and only gets involved when there's a title change that needs to be made or other big decision. It's been that way from the beginning of SD and there's no reason to think it has changed, especially since SD is such a different-feeling show to Raw. Raw has all the hallmarks of a Vince McMahon production: It's unfocused, spastic, too talky, quick to change direction with out any logic or reason. It shares Vince's two-second attention span. Smackdown is patient, deliberate, focused on wrestling. It sees its storylines through and gives characters depth and motivations.
That could be. I do think he's involved on the show. We do know he's at the show. But the show is just flat out booked differently. It feels so much like NXT. All the stories make sense, the matches have stakes, things aren't forgotten.
I'm not arguing the shows aren't different. I've seen the shows. I know they are. I just find the premise that Vince has next to nothing to do with a show that's still trying to get going on a new night/network and is now live, simply because it's different/better than Raw, to be kind of ridiculous. You can't blame him for all Monday night's issues because he's a control freak, and then give him no credit for Tuesday's better show. Either he's not as much at fault for Monday's issues, or he deserves more credit for Tuesday's success. It's not like he's the only person writing Raw.
Raw has gone through multiple writers, different "eras" with different guys being pushed, but it's retained the same short-sighted, 2D booking and characters that it's had since the end of the Attitude Era. Smackdown, meanwhile, has also had different writers and bookers and talent, and it has gone through wildly different styles over the years. Not just in terms of importance or relevance, but in terms of what it focuses on, how well it is booked/written, etc. It's not an opinion that Vince micromanages and rewrites Raw at the last minute almost on a weekly basis while hardly ever getting involved in Smackdown. That's how it's been since 2002.
It's all on Punk, Vince and company have shown over and over that they have no problem bringing someone back if it will make them money
I'm not so sure this is true, i actually think Vince wants to retire, and has wanted to for awhile now. I think that was the reason behind the Roman mega push . It was partly ego over making one last face that runs the place, but more so he wanted to hand over he company with the ability to say to whoever gets it, "here, I made you another Cena/Rock/Austin/Hogan that you can ride for the next 6-10 years before you have to figure out who to ride next". When that failed and we got the brand split I think it was the same type of reason; an angle that can be riden for multiple years before the new crew has to figure out something else to ride in his mind.
If they limit what the cruiser weights should do they should just cancel it all together and give them their own show on the network.