AEW / WWE thread - real fighting over fake fighting

Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by bigpig, Aug 21, 2016.

  1. Illinihockey

    Illinihockey Well-Known Member
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    WWE is awful at building tweeners anymore.
     
  2. Nostradumass

    Nostradumass Well-Known Member
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    Here's the thing, Vince has never known how to book a heel champion. People talk about how good the booking was in the old days, but in the old (WWF) days, the champ was a babyface for long stretches; the title was only ever put on a heel as a transition. The exception is the one-of-a-kind Superstar Billy Graham.

    Look at the list of HEEL champs Vince has had and you see a wasteland of superstars who were booked like scrubs to keep the (non-champ) top babyface looking good. Vince's territory has always been about a babyface champ that's the focal point. Whenever he decides to book around a heel champ, he exposes his greatest weakness as a booker.

    Ivan Koloff - transitional champ, 21 days
    Stan Stasiak - transitional champ, 9 days
    Billy Graham - originally a transitional champ but was so popular they stuck with him (exception to the rule #1), 300 days
    Iron Sheik - transitional champ, 30 days
    Andre the Giant - storyline purposes, immediately stripped
    Randy Savage - became a heel just before Mania/transitional, a few months
    Sgt. Slaughter - transitional champ, 60 days
    Undertaker - storyline purposes, immediately stripped
    Ric Flair - booked weakly for 77 days. Flair as champ in NWA was always "he's a cheater who can beat you straight up if he wanted to, but chooses to cheat." In WWF he was just a cheater and was never presented as a legit threat.
    Yokozuna - exception to the rule #2. He was a monster and was booked accordingly, although he did still have classic Vince moments, like winning his biggest title defense to date by DQ
    Bob Backlund - transitional champ, 3 days
    Sycho Sid - eh, he had a two month reign and lost the title back to the guy he beat. he didn't really do anything good or bad, other than Bret made him look like a million bucks onthe December PPV. Let's call him exception #3
    Sycho Sid again - transitional champ, 1 month
    Kane - storyline purposes, lost the next night
    The Rock - see below
    The Rock again - see below
    The Rock again (Russo, man) -
    Rock traded the belt with Mankind but his entire first reign was just to build him up between Survivor Series and Mania, in order to lose it to Austin. That's fine (heels are bred to lose eventually). He was booked pretty well (despite losing the title a few times before dropping it to Austin). Exception #4
    Triple H - did nothing for the month he had the belt, 22 days
    Vince McMahon - Storyline purposes, vacated immediately
    Triple H - booked like a stooge, classic Vince heel champ booking. Never again would Triple H let it happen though. From here on out his title reigns would feature him dominating. But that's politics and not booking, so it doesn't count. 2nd reign lasted 50 days
    Kurt Angle - booked like a chump, 126 days
    Steve Austin - The great exception. The only time since Graham where Vince's heel champ was also the main focal point of the show. He was THE star, while also being a heel champ. 175 day reign was all as a heel. He lost and won the title back from Angle but a month later 9|11 happened and they made him a babyface again
    Chris Jericho - lol, 98 days of terrible terrible booking
    Undertaker - transitional champ (along with the Rock), 60 days
    Brock Lesnar - doesn't count as Heyman was booking Smackdown at the time, 84 days of dominance
    JBL - a long (280 day) reign wherein he looked like a midcard cheater who lucked into the belt on account of Eddie losing 50 gallons of blood and kept fluke-retaining it in match after match
    Edge - storyline purposes, lost on his next PPV defense back to Cena
    Edge again - booked like a chump for 80 days before losing it back to Cena
    Randy Orton - storyline purposes, lost immediately
    Randy Orton again - booked better than most (this was bald head, sexual assault, punt people to death Randy), but still made to look like Triple H's shoe scrubber whenever they tangled. 200 days
    Edge - transitional champ, 21 days
    Randy Orton - transitional champ, 42 days
    Randy Orton again - transitional champ, 90 days
    I dunno, I think Randy Orton again...2009 was a terrible year. I think there's another month long reign somewhere in the latter part of that year.
    Sheamus - won the belt on a fluke, held it like a chump, lost it back 2 months later
    Batista - transitional champ (but what great one he was; fat girls and sunglasses Batista), 30 days
    Randy Orton - transitional champ, 2 months
    The Miz - a little Jericho a little JBL. Originally planned on a short reign that Vince fell in love with, while still booking him like a turd
    Alberto Del Rio - storyline purposes, 1 month
    CM Punk - like Savage, turned heel later in his run, but the whole thing was a big transition to the Rock. He looked average but never beat any top guy cleanly. hashtag 434 days
    Randy Orton - storyline purposes, 1 month
    Randy Orton again - booked like a lackey
    Brock Lesnar - part time, doesn't count, 200 days
    Seth Rollins - booked like a loser, 200 days
    Sheamus - lol, 20 days
    Triple H - part time, doesn't count, 70 days
    Seth Rollins, transitional champ, lost immediately
    Kevin Owens (Raw champ) - lost a cage match to a non-champ babyface that Vince is in love with.


    So the exceptions (not counting the son-in-law) have been Superstar Billy Graham, Yokozuna, Sycho Sid for two months, Rock, Steve Austin and a couple part-timers. Five guys, three of whom are once in a generation talent whose starpower basically superseded any bad booking.


    I stand by my original position: Vince doesn't know how to book a heel champ...or at least, doesn't want to book them to be strong). Once a decade he has a heel champ go on a tear, but that's about it. The rest of the time they look like scrubs.
     
    #1502 Nostradumass, Sep 20, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016
  3. Bankz

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    RAW is going to continue to suck ass with Steph and Vince running the show.

    All the shit we hated about RAW is still there.

    Its a shame because they toss IWC guys at the top to cover its flaws but under the top gloss the product is the same awful shit.

    3 hours on RAW and nearly 2 months to build up the Cruiserweights and they next to nothing to build up the characters. They just put on a fatal 4 way with zero hype and zero build that was giving a title match to the current champion. Oh and they didn't even bring up the fucking champion so people could see him in person. I like Mic but nothing say's "we don't give a fuck" like a GM who can't even remember his lines to the promo introducing these guys. He fucked up so bad he had to pull out his bullet points... fuck

    a 10 man tag just because... woof

    Women's division that is pushing Bayley by having her pinned clean on back to back weeks

    Tag Division that is a flat out joke. No one is booked serious everyone is a comedy act.

    What the fuck is Seth Rollins??? Crying like a bitch to Steph backstage but cocky baby in ring

    Why is Roman/Rusev being booked like the top of the card when its for the US title? This isn't even the first PPV that they have done this. They booked Roman/Rusev at the top leading into Summerslam. The match took place 2nd from the top. WTF

    Roman is hated... so having Rollins save the face getting beat down in the middle of the ring doesn't work. Do you not hear him getting shit on weekly? How does this make any sense to anyone calling the shots.

    Speaking of world title being booked like shit (see CM Punk a few years back) Looks like Owens is going to get the same treatment. Losing to Roman? Why? Then how does he get his heat back after the loss? being a cheerleader for Rusev? Sigh...

    On paper the names for RAW are amazing. But the creative for the show is fucking awful.

    2 months in and Smackdown has gained viewership and last week had higher ratings.
     
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  4. Illinihockey

    Illinihockey Well-Known Member
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    The main event of RAW running up to Clash of Champions involves 2 heels, a tweener who is booked and acts like a heel, and a face everyone hates. Of course its failing.

    Also a huge problem I have with RAW is that Steph and Foley are on TV all the fucking time. Regal rarely shows up on NXT, Shane and Bryant take a back seat to the wrestlers on Smackdown, yet if you asked someone who didn't know better who the show was about, I'm guessing they'd say Stephanie McMahon.
     
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  5. Nostradumass

    Nostradumass Well-Known Member
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    On his best day Vince is simply out of touch.

    On his worst he's out of his mind.

    Raw is what it has been for years, only now with less talent to pad the three hour run time. Even with a third of the roster, Smackdown is thriving only because Vince isn't micromanaging everything.
     
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  6. fsugrad99

    fsugrad99 I'm the victim here
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    Bryan and Dave had good points on the cruiserweights this morning.

    The actual match was good, but it's hard for one guy to get over in that kind of match. Anyway, it was treated just like the rest of Raw, which is terribly corporate, overly brand-centric and lacking in authenticity. Part of what got the CWC over was it was treated differently. It was presented differently, the announcers were different, motivations were different. You know what really helped the cruiserweights stand apart in WCW? Mike Tenay. He treated them differently and kind of their own special thing.

    Raw stripped that all away. I think they guys can get over because they're really talented, but what should be an easy path is now going up-hill. Last night, they were just another segment.
     
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  7. Bankz

    Bankz Well-Known Member
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    Cedric is amazing... by far my favorite cruiserweight WWE has right now.

    His finisher is fantastic. Worked his ass off that match. Probably the only guy in that match that got himself over
     
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  8. jrmy

    jrmy For bookings contact Morgan at 702-374-3735
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    Yeah Cedric is one of my favorites
     
  9. Hank Scorpio

    Hank Scorpio Globex Corporation, Philanthropist, Supervillain
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    Becky with the straight fire
     
  10. Shiggityshwo

    Shiggityshwo Well-Known Member
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    fuck yeah Becky
     
  11. Shiggityshwo

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    ...so what did Rikishi tell you David?
     
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  12. Hank Scorpio

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    Don't touch my crackers
     
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  13. fsugrad99

    fsugrad99 I'm the victim here
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    Good show thus far

    Really shows how blah Raw is
     
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  14. Joey Freshwater

    Joey Freshwater Slingin The Pipe Since 75
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    I'm behind a bit but Crews still is so bland to me. Love him in the ring but he has no story really. No purpose. He's just a super positive guy who smiles a lot.
     
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  15. Hank Scorpio

    Hank Scorpio Globex Corporation, Philanthropist, Supervillain
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    Its crazy that most of my favorite guys are on Raw, yet I enjoy Smackdown so much more.
     
  16. Illinihockey

    Illinihockey Well-Known Member
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    Usos feel so fresh with a simple heel turn
     
  17. Joey Freshwater

    Joey Freshwater Slingin The Pipe Since 75
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  18. Hank Scorpio

    Hank Scorpio Globex Corporation, Philanthropist, Supervillain
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    So lolCenaloses? Dude hasnt won a big match in like a year
     
  19. GrizzliesDrew

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    A fucking sunset flip?
     
  20. Bankz

    Bankz Well-Known Member
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    Dean going hard on Talking Smack
     
  21. ohhaithur

    ohhaithur e-Batman
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    Ric Flair did a reddit AMA today. He was very honest and it was a nice read

    Link
     
  22. Hank Scorpio

    Hank Scorpio Globex Corporation, Philanthropist, Supervillain
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    So how long until Vince panics at Smackdown being better than Raw and plucks all the top talent (performers and backstage) over to Raw like he did when Heyman was running things in the early 00's?
     
  23. Bankz

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    Probably a few more months before we reach that point.

    My guess is he puts the belt on Roman because he will save the ratings
     
  24. Sub-Zero

    Sub-Zero ALL THE TOSTITOS!!!
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    So with ratings down - is the bridge really that burned between CM Punk and the WWE that they wouldnt realize what is best for business? I mean, his UFC PPV buys were seriously eye-popping.

    [​IMG]
     
  25. Bankz

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    You are right the WWE has always been a babyface company... Problem is Vince has no idea how to build/push a baby face for this generation.
     
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  26. Bankz

    Bankz Well-Known Member
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    what was the PPV buy numbers
     
  27. Sub-Zero

    Sub-Zero ALL THE TOSTITOS!!!
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    dont remember off top of my head but it was the highest PPV buy for any non McGregor/Ronda/Brock fight in years. And the rest of the card cant be pointed to as the draw either.
     
  28. Nostradumass

    Nostradumass Well-Known Member
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    It's only a matter of time.

    scorpion and the fox
     
  29. Nostradumass

    Nostradumass Well-Known Member
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    also true
     
  30. Bankz

    Bankz Well-Known Member
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    WWE really fucked themselves by splitting divisions in the draft.

    You want to set apart both shows have them feature different things.

    You can only see tags and women on RAW

    You can only see CW on Smackdown.

    What they did was give the fans another reason to tune out of RAW. Because Smackdown is superior in every way 2 months into the split.
     
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  31. tandin

    tandin Guest

    gave me a reason to tune out of both.

    raw sucks but has the stars I like. smackdown is better but has few people I give a shit about.

    boom, don't watch either the last few weeks and canceled my network sub.
     
  32. Nostradumass

    Nostradumass Well-Known Member
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    Smackdown is good enough that it might make you a fan of guys you don't like.
     
  33. Nomad Gamecock

    Nomad Gamecock That's a Peach? I thought it was a giant ass.
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    Hopefully Vince turns over RAW to Haitch and Ryan Ward....

    lol, nevermind you'll to take the company from his cold, dead hands.
     
  34. MG2

    MG2 I like to give away joy for free
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    Why are people so sure that Vince isn't heavily involved in Smackdown?
     
  35. Nomad Gamecock

    Nomad Gamecock That's a Peach? I thought it was a giant ass.
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    Also, thanks again Vince


    "WWE is apparently going to tone down the cruiserweights on Monday Night Raw, so they aren't doing as many big flips and high spots."
     
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  36. Bankz

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    lol... He's beyond out of touch with what the marketplace wants.
     
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  37. Sub-Zero

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    Jesus. The only explanation there is that it makes Roman look bad. Can't have all these good wrestlers out there doing things Roman can't do.
     
  38. Nomad Gamecock

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    In short, Smackdown is being booked clearly differently from Raw. The presentation is better. Different guys are getting pushes, etc.

    I posted a few pages back, but Smackdown is being booked like the old NWA/WCW or current NXT. Raw is being booked like the same old shit we have seen for over a decade.
     
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  39. Nomad Gamecock

    Nomad Gamecock That's a Peach? I thought it was a giant ass.
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    MG2, read this. I posted it right after the September 14th Smackdown.
     
  40. MG2

    MG2 I like to give away joy for free
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    Right, but I think the premise that Vince is some sort of control freak who screws everything up in his company on its biggest show, but then has essentially nothing to do with the live 2-hour show that is also hugely important to his company that is successful, is kind of absurd.

    Maybe you're right and Vince just sits back and lets everyone else run the show on Tuesdays, but I highly doubt it. More likely, Smackdown just has better people around him with better ideas, and they're a little more willing to do a traditional wrestling show on a Tuesday than they are on Monday with the company's signature show.
     
  41. Hank Scorpio

    Hank Scorpio Globex Corporation, Philanthropist, Supervillain
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    For me, its based on past interviews with Paul Heyman and Taz saying as much. Granted that was 10+ years ago, but based on his history and reputation, I dont think anything has changed.
     
  42. Nostradumass

    Nostradumass Well-Known Member
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    Vince has always viewed Smackdown as the B show. Raw is the bread and butter of the company. As Raw goes, so goes WWF/E. It's been that way since around 1997.

    Smackdown will never get Vince's focus. He spends his tuesday prepping for next week's Raw. In short, he has no problem leaving SD to its head writer, and only gets involved when there's a title change that needs to be made or other big decision. It's been that way from the beginning of SD and there's no reason to think it has changed, especially since SD is such a different-feeling show to Raw.

    Raw has all the hallmarks of a Vince McMahon production: It's unfocused, spastic, too talky, quick to change direction with out any logic or reason. It shares Vince's two-second attention span.

    Smackdown is patient, deliberate, focused on wrestling. It sees its storylines through and gives characters depth and motivations.
     
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  43. Nomad Gamecock

    Nomad Gamecock That's a Peach? I thought it was a giant ass.
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    That could be. I do think he's involved on the show. We do know he's at the show.

    But the show is just flat out booked differently. It feels so much like NXT. All the stories make sense, the matches have stakes, things aren't forgotten.
     
  44. Shawn Hunter

    Shawn Hunter Vote Corey Matthews for Congress
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    Jesus christ Vince that's what makes the cruiserweights so fun to watch. What a fucking moron.
     
  45. MG2

    MG2 I like to give away joy for free
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    I'm not arguing the shows aren't different. I've seen the shows. I know they are.

    I just find the premise that Vince has next to nothing to do with a show that's still trying to get going on a new night/network and is now live, simply because it's different/better than Raw, to be kind of ridiculous. You can't blame him for all Monday night's issues because he's a control freak, and then give him no credit for Tuesday's better show. Either he's not as much at fault for Monday's issues, or he deserves more credit for Tuesday's success. It's not like he's the only person writing Raw.
     
  46. Nostradumass

    Nostradumass Well-Known Member
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    Raw has gone through multiple writers, different "eras" with different guys being pushed, but it's retained the same short-sighted, 2D booking and characters that it's had since the end of the Attitude Era. Smackdown, meanwhile, has also had different writers and bookers and talent, and it has gone through wildly different styles over the years. Not just in terms of importance or relevance, but in terms of what it focuses on, how well it is booked/written, etc.

    It's not an opinion that Vince micromanages and rewrites Raw at the last minute almost on a weekly basis while hardly ever getting involved in Smackdown. That's how it's been since 2002.
     
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  47. Hank Scorpio

    Hank Scorpio Globex Corporation, Philanthropist, Supervillain
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    I'm starting to think the brand split is a bet on which one wins: better talent or better writing
     
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  48. Mr Bulldops

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    It's all on Punk, Vince and company have shown over and over that they have no problem bringing someone back if it will make them money
     
  49. Mr Bulldops

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    I'm not so sure this is true, i actually think Vince wants to retire, and has wanted to for awhile now. I think that was the reason behind the Roman mega push . It was partly ego over making one last face that runs the place, but more so he wanted to hand over he company with the ability to say to whoever gets it, "here, I made you another Cena/Rock/Austin/Hogan that you can ride for the next 6-10 years before you have to figure out who to ride next".

    When that failed and we got the brand split I think it was the same type of reason; an angle that can be riden for multiple years before the new crew has to figure out something else to ride in his mind.
     
    #1549 Mr Bulldops, Sep 21, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
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  50. Joey Freshwater

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    If they limit what the cruiser weights should do they should just cancel it all together and give them their own show on the network.
     
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