Look at this photo on the back wall. Try to zoom in on it if you can. It's the old logo. You may not see it if the contrast on your phone or PC is not right.
went back and found the original discussion and saw they're different. still gonna piss me off that they make an effort to make sure we know that hosts change up narratives and roles all the time but Dolores has been stuck pickin up that goddamn can and watching her family get shot for 30 years or however long the timelines are apart.
one thing about the william being in the past thing I can't get around to jump on board there... the Dolores flashback in the barn where she shoots rapeyman. It actually makes everything that much more confusing to me. The asian programmer confirmed that the vision Maeve saw before waking up (of her having a daughter and the indian attack/MiB walking into her place) was a flashback to a previous narrative she was remembering. So it's safe to assume that Dolores vision she saw of MiB in the barn before pulling that trigger was also in the past that she was remembering. It would be difficult to say that an MiB flashback for one character =/= an MiB flashback for another. So if William is in the past then what the hell got her on that horse in the middle of the night riding to William and Logans camp? Are we supposed to just eat the "can't fire a gun" was something that was true 30 years ago, something (but not an MiB influence because he was not there) got her to be able to shoot a gun... then 30 years later she's in the same I can't shoot a gun phase, and the MiB makes her be able to shoot. Really? What am I missing here? Kinda seems fucky to me that we have some bicameral shit being used by Arnold (virus/code) popping up in present time and the two characters we've seen it with both associate that voice with MiB in his present form. I'd like to think it means there's a connection between Arnold and MiB but the conversation between MiB and Ford in the saloon kills that...
Dolores is in both... but the flashback in the barn coupled with Maeve's flashback need a way to connect Arnold and MiB for there to be multiple timelines. about to do a rewatch. i really just want to see the conversations between Elsie and Bernard about who is doing what with manipulating. Also was that house that Ford's family was in = the house Teddy was talking about in the middle of the maze? Can't remember the quote but it was like One person made it to the middle of the maze, built a house there, etc etc...
i guess to kinda answer my own question a little it could be an Arnold voice command that would make Dolores be able to shoot 30 years ago. Would that mean MiB is using the bicameral command program and using Arnold's commands now to make her shoot in the present time? Or did Arnold just program his code to make this exact same shit happen twice but 30 years apart? That makes no sense (i mean it makes sense but it's dumb as fuck) but there's not many explanations I can think of that would make sense. so confuse much lost love it
So I just went back and watched the part in episode 3 where Ford talks to Bernard. It is hard not to view that as anything other than him telling Bernard that the picture included Arnold, but he never actually said it. I think that is irrelevant though. He implied that Bernard was looking at Arnold. What I struggle with is Bernard would have put that together when he met Ford's off-grid family, so why did that not come out? Now this is going to sound very tinfoily and confusing, but stick with me on this. I saw a post that basically said that there was a third person in the picture, but we saw the picture from Bernard's perspective and if he was a host, due to his programming he couldn't see the person. This person was Arnold who is actually Bernard. Now look at the picture. It does seem odd that it is framed so far to the left. I am not buying into this, but I am open minded to it if we see more evidence. It does seem too complicated though.
Was that not one of the first thing's Bernard said when he walked into the house? Didn't he say to Ford, "Is this Arnold?" Edit: Just rewatched and when Bernard walks into the room he ask the man, "Are you Arnold?". The man replies "who's Arnold and who the hell are you?" They didn't explain any further but Bernard definitely made some kind of connection there.
The logos are the only thing I see that points to multiple timelines. I know yall have argued for a half dozen other things as proof but I still disagree on most of it. The Logos are pretty compelling evidence though. Only theory I've been opposed to is MiB=William but I do think there's gotta be some crazy, probably tinfoily, explanations for stuff if there are multiple timelines. Like the flashbacks having MiB in present day appearance and why Dolores would go off the exact same loop in the exact same way some arbitrary 30 years apart (and nobody can connect the dots or is this part of the conspiracy to sabotage the park?) due to "arnold code"... and I think it would still mean that multiple Delos employees would be Hosts, and not in a cool way like the Bernardobot... but Elsie and Stubbs. Show is going to rip my heart out if Elsie is a robot
This is how it's going to go down. Bernard will be with Teddy and somehow there will be a flood of some sort and Bernard will make it to the safe room. Teddy will be left to drown but before he dies he reveals to Bernard on his hand in sharpie that Bernard is in fact Arnold.
Ford looks confused as shit when he sees the Maze emblem carved into a table in the town he said not to destroy when extending the canyon. Very possible he's got no idea about the Arnold Code "Plan". Next scene is him going to look through an old notebook, that I assume is Arnold's because it looks like a sketching of Dolores - presumably this was Arnold's sketch book for building hosts, etc - and he finds the maze emblem on the following page. Like a I kinda remember that emblem but where was it = lightbulb moment. edit: next scene w/ teddy talking about the maze with MiB. "Maze is an old native myth." Wyatt went to kill natives and came back crazy. Wyatt found the maze. Wyatt is Arnold
first sentence and 2nd part were scenes in episode 6 edit = tongue in cheek tin foil Ford (in cabin scene to bernard): "Arnold said great artists always hid themselves in their work" interesting quote
That jibes with this Ford dialog that I posted last week. It also reminds me of how we can view Ford now as well. Specifically, Ford says to Teddy, "A fiction which like all great stories is rooted in truth. It starts in a time of war. A world in flames with a villain called Wyatt." Then there is some back and forth and Ford does the upload. Teddy says, "of course I remember Wyatt. When you look upon the true face of evil you will never forget. He claimed he can hear the voice of God. He started down near Escalante. Army was sent to put down the natives. Bad business. Wyatt was a sergeant when he went missing while out on some maneuvers. He came back a few weeks later with some pretty strange ideas." In a later scene, Teddy says the following..."They are masks. The men underneath them are what you should be afraid of. Wyatt's got them so twisted around they would do anything for him. They'll kill anyone. Pain don't slow them. They don't fear death. They reckon they've already died and gone to hell and this is it...I did a stint in the army down in Escalante. Wyatt was my sergeant, my friend. Then everything changed. Wyatt disappeared while out on maneuvers. He came back with some strange ideas. He claimed this land did not belong to the old natives or the new settlers. That it belonged to something that had yet to come. That it belonged to him."
Crazy that he would tell the story like that but not remember that he was killing the soldiers right there with Wyatt like a tag team, when he was about to get branded. didn't get much from Elsie/Bernard convos in rewatch: - someone turned on the bicameral transmitter in an abandoned theater - Theresa was responsible for the woodcutter's transmitter and stealing info via bicameral control of woodcutter - Arnold is using the bicameral control as well for weeks to reprogram hosts to go off loop, new loops, and changing initial programming So essentially we can assume that the hosts that are acting up are all capable of fucking up guests/employees (also says lying to them). The reason the Woodcutter still killed himself (instead of Elsie/Stubbs) is because he was being manipulated by Theresa, whose only objective was stealing park info, as opposed to Arnold who is orchestrating the apocalypse. Could be doing it through a code that he left behind that is just now turning on (but would actually had to have been turned on in the William timeline as well if there are multiple timelines), or Arnold could be "living" through one of the hosts, ie- Wyatt. And then in the following scene with Ford and his child self - the child lies to him, which judging by Fords reaction was the first time, and then says the Arnold voice told him to kill the dog. About to be 47 old school hosts that can kill the guests... arnold convinced the boy that if he killed the dog it couldn't hurt anything else (killed it bc it ate a rabbit) - could easily convince the hosts the same thing about killing guests so they couldn't hurt anymore hosts
Apparently the church model in Ford's office is the same from Dolores flashback. In case that's relevant .
on the bicameral front, is that a tool that basically redirects the hosts by making them think they are hearing the god voice/their own in their mind?
yea it's presumably how Arnold has been talking to all of the hosts that are acting up and hearing voices (except the woodchopper). kinda not on team bernardobot after rewatching that episode, even though I want that theory to be true. I don't think it is... were you and GuyOnA_Buffalo saying the whole "bernard has been there a long time and not just 10 years" on the previous page solely because Elsie said "you've been here forever" (in a sarcastic teasing manner) and then he repeats it (in the same playful manner)? Or because he knew about "the downstairs" and how to access the older computer system? how does team bernardobot explain his video chat with the wife about their son? seems real stupid and unnecessary if he's a robot.
I agree about bernardbot. I was against it, but can't get over Ford asking Bernard if he was around back when the second bot was made. I just can't make myself let that go as unimportant. Then him saying he'd been there ten years and right after you hear conversation that appears to contradict that (playful or otherwise), you hear Maeve state she's been at the brothel ten years (coincidence, perhaps). Anyhow, I'm definitely open to betnardbot, but the convo with wife, etc... I go back to Maeve telling the butcher in response to him claiming he's real, "how would you know". Bernard wouldn't know he was a bot. It could be his backstory (not sure if I'd like that) and his wife could be AI. There are a lot of options. Anything is possible in this world I suppose.
Think we are going to have some plot holes with the production stops and what not. At least that's my fear and hope that they clean it all up and it all comes together at the end
yea not writing anything off at this point for bernardobot but if he is then his creator and programmer spent 10000000x more time on him than any other host in the park. Self-awareness would be unreal for him to actually be fucking with Dolores in those chats trying to make her sentient, knowing all about the voice commands for hosts and being able to use them (wonder if this is just a human vs. host thing), and now being able to investigate corporate espionage. That's a hell of a robot and if Bernardobot is true then I'd say Arnold has already won his argument Seems like he's capable of "creating his own storylines" instead of just doing a job/routine and responding to Guests like the host chick that welcomed William
http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/maeve-goes-through-looking-glass-strong-westworld-245463 http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/11/07/westworld-the-adversary-review
Spoiler: preview if you look at the scene pretty closely in the preview... it looks like Clementine beats the fuck out of (possibly kills) Sizemore, in one of the interrogation rooms. Would make me very happy
I'm not on team bernard is a robot yet. Haven't seen any major signs that he would be to date. As far as the time goes, I was just repeating what someone else said about the 10 years, and I don't have a reference. Just wondering if I had that wrong.
I read that some people were disappointed with episode 6 and felt the quality went down. They were pointing to the fact that the production stop was after episode 5.
Production stop? I thought 6 was an excellent episode. I haven't thought enough to rank them, but it would probably be top half imhv.
quality definitely wasn't down but some people probably just care more about some storylines than others. not out of the ordinary for shows like this with multiple groups moving along their path, ie - game of thrones. i could see someone that's really invested in William/Logan/Dolores and doesn't care about Maeve seeing this as a boring "filler episode" and they should die for it good catch by the IGN reviewer: -Teddy and the Man in Black are told there is trouble in Pariah, the town William and Dolores (who sit this episode out) were in in the last episode – which, yes, could mean they’re arriving right after… but could still also be a misdirect made to make us think these events are happening simultaneously.
When I heard the Pariah thing, I was like fuck...no two timelines. Then magically there was a better path to get there and I was like, yes two fucking timelines.
this episode was awesome. Maeve is a strong character, actress and it's nice to get something different from William and Delores.
Bernard being a robot isn't a big deal either. I just want it to be true. Kind of like, "oh, yea, he isn't real. Now onto..."
I just love the idea of Ford having such a god complex he put the hosts in HQ and maintained/controlled them
I may have posted something about it that I read on Reddit. Pretty cool stuff. I think the reference is wrong though as to who he betrayed or will betray... "Can't be a coincidence, right? Robert Ford is known for betraying James by shooting him in the back. Will Dr. Ford end up betraying Bernard? Has he already betrayed someone? Also, according to wiki, 'In Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle's novel Inferno (1976), Ford is depicted as being in Hell as a traitor.' What did Dolores father say when he malfunctioned? "Hell is empty and all the devils are here" Where is that line from? The Tempest. And wasn't Prospero betrayed by Alonso? The theme of betrayal is clearly evident. Something crazy is going to go down soon. We could even take it one step further. Prospero enslaved Caliban similar to how Ford created and "enslaved" the robots to do his bidding. Damn this show is crazy. References galore!"
I literally just edited my post while you were typing that because I don't agree with his Bernard interpretation.