AEW / WWE thread - real fighting over fake fighting

Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by bigpig, Aug 21, 2016.

  1. GrizzliesDrew

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    There's absolutely no point arguing if Jericho is going to count as a guy WWE developed. He walked into WWE as LITERALLY the same character minus Ralphus.
     
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  2. Illinihockey

    Illinihockey Well-Known Member
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    You are not a serious person
     
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  3. Illinihockey

    Illinihockey Well-Known Member
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    he debuted to one of the biggest pops of all time.
     
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  4. Nostradumass

    Nostradumass Well-Known Member
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    I think terms need to be defined.

    Is someone a "WWE" guy based on longevity or based on whether or not they went from nobody to somebody there? Jericho was already a somebody when he arrived in 1999, but he was there a long time (due to WWE having a veritable monopoly between 2001-2019).

    Rob Van Dam was with WWE longer than he was with ECW. Is he a WWE guy or an ECW guy? If he's not a WWE guy then neither is Chris Jericho. If Jericho is a WWE guy then so is RVD.

    Cody isn't an ex-AEW guy, even though the entire persona he brought to WWE earlier this year is a carbon-copy of what he did in AEW (and ROH/NJPW). He's still a WWE guy because that's where he started out, essentially, and cut his teeth before moving on to do bigger things elsewhere.

    I think the qualification should be based on where someone made their mark and went from nobody to somebody, not based on how long they were there, etc. Although I would put a disclaimer on that, and limit "made their mark" to promotions with national TV deals, so WWF/E, WCW, late-ECW, late-ROH, AEW, TNA/Impact, NJPW, etc. Something like early ECW, AWA, pre-sinclair ROH, etc were just glorified indies or existed in the pre-takeover days before Vince bought the TV in the 80s
     
    #68004 Nostradumass, Sep 22, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2022
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  5. ZeroPointZero

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    play fighting is VERY serious, I apologize
     
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  6. Bankz

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    I don't think anything is taken away from MJF from the baby face reaction he gets. He's clearly not going to lean into a more babyface approach. I think he probably wants to be boo'd and not be welcomed like the biggest baby face in the company. I don't think he is looking to be a NWO type tweener or anti hero like Austin is my point.
     
  7. ZeroPointZero

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    if you had an extended run with the biggest company in the genre, and the biggest moments of your career were with that company, people are going to associate you with said company. I don’t see why that would make people mad.
     
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  8. Illinihockey

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    i made this point as well. It’s stupid that crowds cheer him. He’s not an anti-hero, crowds in New York are fucking stupid
     
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  9. Illinihockey

    Illinihockey Well-Known Member
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    because that isn’t the argument
     
  10. Illinihockey

    Illinihockey Well-Known Member
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    if that is the criteria then almost everyone is going to be a WWE guy because they had a monopoly on national televised wrestling for two decades. Would you argue Mox is a WWE guy?
     
  11. Baron

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    Been awhile since a ratings post...
     
  12. Tiffin

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    I mean if we're going to assume any indy guy H signed in the NXT heyday is a WWE guys, there's gonna be a real short list of non-WWE guys.

    But guys like Keith Lee and Swerve are not what I'd consider WWE guys, just because they came to AEW from there.
     
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  13. Nostradumass

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    Yeah I would, although I would differential "Mox" from "Ambrose" when talking about his WWE title win vs his AEW title win, etc, but when thinking of the man himself, he's a WWE guy, and you're right, most-everyone is going to be a WWE guy in that way, which is why bothering to label people as a "x-guy" or a "y-guy" is silly.
     
  14. Illinihockey

    Illinihockey Well-Known Member
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    Oh FTR, do they count as WWE guys? Does AEW get credit for making them global stars?
     
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  15. Bankz

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    I have no problem with Jericho being considered a WCW guy. He was a very over talent in a company that was every bit as large as WWE at the time.

    I will always look at him as a WWE guy because of the longevity of his run. But in his case and guys of that era I have no problems with those who look at it different.

    I do think with the modern era of wrestling... HHH put it perfectly... You have wrestlers and you have superstars and guys like KO, Rollins, Sami, Mox were popular wrestlers but became superstars in WWE its a different level and even the brands on the market aren't in the same universe that WWE is operating in. And that is no knock in any way to AEW it's the closest thing to actual competition WWE has had since WCW shut its doors.

    With that said I would consider Hangman, Kenny, The Bucks to all be AEW guys even if they eventually left to WWE and did big things.
     
  16. Tiffin

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    What is AJ Styles? A TNA guy?
     
  17. Illinihockey

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    Is Finn Balor a WWE guy or Nakamura? Both were gigantic NJPW stars
     
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  18. Bankz

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    I agree that guys like Swerve and Lee who didn't get a legit run on main roster shouldn't be considered WWE guys and ultimately with a good run in AEW are probably going to be linked to that company.
     
  19. Nostradumass

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    The idea of someone being "an ex-whatever" guy wasn't a thing in the 90s when wrestlers jumped from WCW to WWF and back again.

    It started up during TNA, when they brought in whatever castoffs WWE let go because they were washed up, and then immediately put the world title on them. Mick Foley was TNA champ for crying out loud. The company developed a reputation for whoring themselves out to secure any "ex-WWE" guy they could. That's not the same as what AEW did, when they got Danielson, Moxley, or a GOAT-contender like Jericho. It's also not the same with guys like Keith Lee, Adam Cole, etc, who were being wasted in WWE/NXT and who were never going to get a chance to be big deals in Vince's company.

    I thought it was unfair to throw in Christian Cage in TNA as "just another ex-WWE guy." That wasn't the same as bringing in a tired old Kevin Nash or Mick Foley. That was a young, experienced talent that wanted to prove he could be a top player. AEW has signed a bunch of guys like that who also worked for WWE. They have signed very, very few "washed up ex-WWE" guys in that way. Punk is probably the biggest example, but he's such an obvious exception to the rule it doesn't count. Danielson and Mox weren't washed up. Jericho was heading that way in WWE, but I don't think anyone would argue he wasn't one of the best "first signings" TK made at the start of AEW.
     
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  20. Bankz

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    Depends on who you ask... A hard core IWC will say NJPW, a casual wrestling fan will say WWE.
     
  21. Nostradumass

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    That's why I said we need to define the terms. Is someone a "x-company guy" because they were first famous somewhere or because they were at their biggest/longest/etc somewhere? My whole point is the monicker of "ex-company guy" is too vague and malleable to be fairly used. It's just a way to take a cheap shot without really making a substantive argument.

    TNA was dumb to sign Foley, Booker, Nash, etc and give them titles. They weren't dumb to sign Christian. AEW wasn't dumb to sign Mox or Jericho or Danielson and give them titles (Danielson eventually).
     
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  22. Bankz

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    He looks like a Judgement Day guy... And I'm here for a united AJ and Finn
     
  23. Shawn Hunter

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    Dominique Wilkins loves the Acclaimed
     
    #68023 Shawn Hunter, Sep 22, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2022
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  24. zeberdee

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    the topic of what company a guy belongs to is ambiguous enough that it could be argued forever and people wouldn't necessarily be wrong, they would just be framing the question differently in their own mind.
     
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  25. ZeroPointZero

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    if you hate WWE you’ll do whatever mental gymnastics needed to not associate wrestlers there. If you go by numbers and facts, it’s not that tough.

    This all stems from someone critiquing AEW and people reflexively needing to bring up WWE as a result.
     
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  26. Illinihockey

    Illinihockey Well-Known Member
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    the critique was literally about AEW in relation to WWE guys
     
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  27. GrizzliesDrew

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    The argument is different from the one you changed it to.....the statement was that AEW has DEVELOPED no one. That's ludicrous. Also, it's ludicrous to say WWE developed Jericho. He was a finished product when he got there.
     
  28. Bankz

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    nobody made the argument that Jericho was developed in WWE.
     
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  29. Shawn Hunter

    Shawn Hunter Vote Corey Matthews for Congress
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    I don’t even get what the point is in arguing if a guy is a WWE guy, AEW, NJPW, ROH, or whatever other alphabet soup company you want to say. Call them whatever the fuck you want so long as they actually spent time in that company beyond a guest appearance.

    Like Eddie Guerrero was on the first ROH show but I'm not calling him an ROH guy, for example.

    I'll call Danielson, Punk, Samoa Joe, Seth Rollins, Zayn, etc. ROH guys if I damn well please.
     
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  30. Brocktoon

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    His mic skills aren't there yet but I've seen him wrestle in person several times now and he has a ton of in-ring charisma. Never seen someone get a crowd so pissed off without actually saying a word as he did in PWG. He's naturally unlikeable and at his best when he leans into it.
     
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  31. Shiggityshwo

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    what if they're also Paul Heyman guys, are we allowing for dual-guyship here?
     
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  32. Beeds07

    Beeds07 Bitch, it's Saturday
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    Hogan was a WWF guy by every standard, but he was really only interesting once he hit WCW.
     
  33. Shawn Hunter

    Shawn Hunter Vote Corey Matthews for Congress
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    What if they were Paul Heyman guys in ECW and WWE? We going with a triple threat here??
     
  34. Shawn Hunter

    Shawn Hunter Vote Corey Matthews for Congress
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    This is an interesting "case study" as he got over big time as both Hulkamania and nWo Hulk and you could easily argue nWo Hulk had by far the bigger wrestling legacy of the two Hulk versions.
     
  35. Shiggityshwo

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    roided coked out Hogan promos from the 80's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
     
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  36. Beeds07

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    This is kinda interesting. Jericho found the most success in WWE but his character was really developed in WCW. I think you can give WWE credit for catching guys at the right time and give by then exposure, but I really only think of guys like Taker, HHH, HBK, Cena Brock and Roman as real WWE guys. Most of the others found success early on then caught fire once they were on TV every week.
     
  37. Beeds07

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    I think both were perfect for the times they were in. Hulk was perfect for the prayers and :airquote:vitamins:airquote: youngsters then perfectly evolved as those people got older and more cynical. I will admit I’m jaded because the Bash storyline is my favorite angle of all time.

    edit: I’ll add in probably the perfect case study. A preteen during hulkamania and a young adult during Hollywood. Now I just want to be sports entertained. Don’t care how and by who.
     
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  38. zeberdee

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    what in the world are you talking about?

    Hulkamania was a worldwide phenomenon that transcended wrestling. it was boring to smarks but it printed money.
     
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  39. Shawn Hunter

    Shawn Hunter Vote Corey Matthews for Congress
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    The one where I see the influences of nWo still dominating in wrestling today and not Hulkamania.
     
  40. zeberdee

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    the NWO didn’t need Hulk Hogan, at that point Hogan needed the NWO.
     
  41. Shawn Hunter

    Shawn Hunter Vote Corey Matthews for Congress
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    Broadcast TV premieres put a real hit on cable TV last night. Cable ratings were down mostly across the board last night compared to last week while broadcast went thru the roof.

    AEW stayed over a million for every quarter again, but the highest demo quarter this week, 0.37/485, was basically the same as the lowest of last weeks 0.37/484.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  42. Nostradumass

    Nostradumass Well-Known Member
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    There is no nWo without Hogan dropping the leg on Savage.

    No one else would have made as big an impact. Not Sting, not Luger, not nobody.
     
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  43. Shawn Hunter

    Shawn Hunter Vote Corey Matthews for Congress
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    I don’t know you expect anyone to take you seriously with a comment like this.
     
  44. Shawn Hunter

    Shawn Hunter Vote Corey Matthews for Congress
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  45. Cornfed Buffalo

    Cornfed Buffalo What's a Narduzzi?
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    Definitely an asshole but most definitely correct
     
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  46. zeberdee

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    I just think you’re crazy if you’re talking about Hogan’s legacy. I think of NWO I think of Hall and Nash. Hulkamania made Hogan a global superstar. the only reason Hogan turning was such a big deal was because of Hulkamania and everything it had been for years and years.
     
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  47. Shawn Hunter

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    Hogan made nWo a global sensation and it was essentially the catalyst for launching wrestling into the main stream consciousness of pop culture.
     
  48. Nostradumass

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    This is also true

    Hogan in the 80s was a genuine pop culture phenom. He wasn't popular ironically. He wasn't popular in spite of pro wrestling. He was, not coincidentally, akin to Mr. T.

    On the other hand, when he went to WCW, as the red and yellow Hulkamaniac, the crowds didn't care. They had a ticker-tape parade for him when he signed with Turner, and the crowds didn't care. He won the title from Flair in his first match, and the crowds didn't care. By the end of his first run with the belt, he was already getting smatterings of boos. He needed to turn, but it was still unfathomable that he would. So while you can say "Hogan needed the nWo more than the nWo needed him" I get what you mean: He needed a makeover or he would be stale and forgotten. But at the same time, the nWo doesn't happen unless the ultimate 80s wrestling hero breaks bad. If it stays Hall and Nash it's nothing.
     
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  49. Nostradumass

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    Hogan did this twice, though, so I don't get your argument here.

    He did it in the mid 80s and again in the late 90s. That's why he's the biggest star ever in wrestling. There'll never be another because the stars will never align like that again.