Official Cryptocurrency Thread: Skepticism to Speculation to FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by Nantucket, Jan 29, 2017.

  1. Oranjello

    Oranjello Well-Known Member
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    That's a really great point and I haven't thought about it. I don't know the specifics of the forms you're referring to, but if you're talking FBAR then I guess it'd depend on what the FBAR defines as a "bank account." The answers to those questions are something a tax firm could bill out quite a bit for, at least initially. No idea, honestly.
     
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  2. jrmy

    jrmy For bookings contact Morgan at 702-374-3735
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    I’m looking at my tax report from cointracking and it’s showing I had gains in excess of what my total portfolio value was at the end of the year. How is that possible?
     
  3. Oranjello

    Oranjello Well-Known Member
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    The couple of times I've taken a hard look at the report I have from cointracking.info I've noticed the same things. They seem to inflate the "cost" of coins based on something but I'm not sure what. I know how much USD I've put in, and the amount they report as "cost" is 2-3x that.

    From an administrative perspective trading this stuff is pretty complex since there's not always a readily available converter to USD. If you were to try and do it the right way, you'd look at the time and date you bought into BTC/LTC/ETH and deduce from there. In other words, your original basis would start with the amount you bought BTC for and then you'd have to work it all out from there based on the price of BTC against every other coin at the time you bought/sold/traded.

    Think of it in terms of high frequency trading done by hedge funds. They have the same administrative problems, but they have the resources to track everything (not to mention a readily-determined price in USD).
     
  4. Oranjello

    Oranjello Well-Known Member
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    I just re-read your question. Your gains are from taking advantage of the rapid increase in price of certain coins. For example, if you buy $100 of BTC that is worth $200 an hour later, and an hour and 1 minute later you buy FCT, you have $100 of gains you recognize when you convert to FCT.
     
  5. jrmy

    jrmy For bookings contact Morgan at 702-374-3735
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    Fuck
     
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  6. jrmy

    jrmy For bookings contact Morgan at 702-374-3735
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    Yes but if I start with $100 and I make several trades and end up at $200 worth of crypto at the end of the year how the fuck could I have $300 in realized gains when I was in a position where I sold all my positions that were at a loss back to BTC
     
  7. Oranjello

    Oranjello Well-Known Member
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    The gains you realize on each trade add up. Say you put in $100 into BTC. You make a trade when that BTC is worth $200 and you get $200 of FCT. There's $100 worth of taxable gain. Then you trade your FCT when it's worth $300 for XRP. There's another $100 of taxable gain. You have $200 of taxable short term capital gain. Then if you sell your XRP when it's only worth $50 and get back into BTC, you have $250 of short term capital losses with which you can offset your $200 of short term capital gain. At the end, you have $50 of net capital loss.
     
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  8. jrmy

    jrmy For bookings contact Morgan at 702-374-3735
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    I just don’t see how the gains can add up to more than the portfolio value if you have no unrealized losses
     
  9. The_411

    The_411 Well-Known Member

    Welcome to taxation without representation
     
  10. Oranjello

    Oranjello Well-Known Member
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    Each trade you make results in amount of taxable gain that is fixed. The fixed amounts of taxable gain add up regardless of the underlying value of the crypto or portfolio. In other words, your gains and losses are tracked separately than the underlying asset.
     
  11. colonel_forbin

    colonel_forbin Well-Known Member
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    You have losses you're not factoring in
     
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  12. Oranjello

    Oranjello Well-Known Member
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    That's not even close to accurate. This system has been around for 100 years, it's just a new application of existing principles that haven't changed since the income tax was enacted by the 16th Amendment in 1913.

    If you paid $100 for stock X and then you sell it for $200 cash, you have $100 of taxable gain, right? Just because you owe tax on the amount doesn't leave you with less cash. You then turn around and buy $200 of stock Y and you hold it. You still owe tax on that $100 gain despite not having any cash on hand to pay it.
     
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  13. colonel_forbin

    colonel_forbin Well-Known Member
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    The real problem is when the gain is calculated. It's not like the stable dollar where there's always the same measuring stick. My $500 of gains today could be $0 tomorrow. So whether I have capital gains at all could be completely dependent on the exact second my taxes are submitted.

    And 99% of coins can't be purchased with the dollar. So you can't really put a monetary value on their worth for tax purposes. I can't say my 50 XRP are worth $75. Because really, they're worth .0000whatever BTC. And BTC's worth changes every second. So you can't really calculate anything's worth to say "I made $x on that trade."

    It's fucked
     
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  14. Oranjello

    Oranjello Well-Known Member
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    Like I said above, technically you track gains and losses separately from the underlying value of the asset, so whatever the coins are worth when you submit your taxes is irrelevant.

    And yeah, there's not a readily determinable price of most coins to USD. What you're supposed to do is take the price of XRP at 7:23 PM on 1/18/2018 as compared to BTC, and then compare BTC to USD at the exact same time. It's a two step process for alts. If you've done that work, the IRS isn't going to argue over BTC being worth $20 more on one exchange than it is on another. If you really want to be a good taxpayer, then you would compare the average price of XRP across all exchanges to the average price of BTC across all exchanges and then compare BTC to USD across all exchanges. In other words, just use CoinMarketCap.
     
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  15. momux

    momux AFAM Scholar
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    So Oranjello is completely correct about everything he's saying in here in terms of accurate interpretations of the laws as currently written.

    That being said, any CPA worth his salt is going to recommend that you not disclose anything related to crypto-to-crypto transactions, especially those which occur at exchanges outside of US jurisdiction. The chance of the IRS having the manpower and political clout to get records from offshore exchanges for trivial amounts is far too small to pay the taxes you'd be asked.

    Said another way, how many of you are paying taxes on your offshore sports gambling winnings?
     
  16. Oranjello

    Oranjello Well-Known Member
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    Exactly. I'm just stating the law as they are currently written. Attorneys can't (shouldn't?) advise folks to break the law, even if they're not clients.
     
  17. jrmy

    jrmy For bookings contact Morgan at 702-374-3735
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    Thanks for the advice ;)
     
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  18. kinghill

    kinghill Cool American Flavour
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  19. OpieT

    OpieT Well-Known Member
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    Any thoughts on VEN versus UBQ? I'm holding an equal amount of both and thinking about ditching UBQ and rolling all into VEN.
     
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  20. Joe Withabee

    Joe Withabee PS I have sifulus
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    Nothing substantive to add, but I'm fairly certain people ITT are big on VEN
     
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  21. wheyum

    wheyum Well-Known Member
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  22. Gallant Knight

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    Just money. Lesson learned
     
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  23. kinghill

    kinghill Cool American Flavour
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  24. Goose

    Goose Hi
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    Thoughts on SPHTX?
     
  25. bburritos

    bburritos Guest

    Well boys, lots of shit adding up. Looks like Vechain will be the blockchain of China. It still feels too good to be true... I guess we will see in time. Got my suitcases loaded up.


    “China will be the first major country to launch a central bank digital currency in 2018,” said Chun Yin Cheung, a partner in PwC China’s risk assurance practice. “Although cryptocurrency exchanges were banned from China in September, the country has always taken a positive attitude toward central bank digital currency and blockchain, actively carrying out relevant research.”

    http://www.scmp.com/business/bankin...rs-banks-halt-banking-services-cryptocurrency
     
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  26. jrmy

    jrmy For bookings contact Morgan at 702-374-3735
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    My bags are loaded
     
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  27. Louis Holth

    Louis Holth but we also just might be those motherfuckers
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    And my body is ready, one way or the other
     
  28. Louis Holth

    Louis Holth but we also just might be those motherfuckers
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    Also, I moved some money around today. Should I wait for a pullback or not risk it and just spend the $6/coin now?
     
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  29. kinghill

    kinghill Cool American Flavour
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    5x VEN growth sounds good to me

    8bil mcap, $30 price

    That's my expert crypto pick of the year

    Been in this game over 2 months now. Expert.
     
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  30. Louis Holth

    Louis Holth but we also just might be those motherfuckers
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    That’s easily level expert from where I’m sitting
     
  31. jrmy

    jrmy For bookings contact Morgan at 702-374-3735
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    VEN is going parabolic this year. Get ready for $500 VEN, gentlemen.

    I'm gonna be a VEN millionaire.
     
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  32. reflux

    reflux Swagriculture
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    Sold the rest of my garbage on Binance. All in on VEN.

    And FCT and PFR.
     
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  33. mal630

    mal630 Well-Known Member
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    Are we still liking NEBL? Should I dump that for VEN?
     
  34. kinghill

    kinghill Cool American Flavour
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    btw I might be the only one here to fuck around with coinsmarkets but they finally posted an update today. Been down for 16 days and they're still working on it and our coins are safe.

    :ohdear:

    Trofie fyi
     
  35. beist

    beist Hyperbolist
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    I just did the math and my gains on a $500 VEN price would be less than life-changing. This depressed me, and I am now considering putting more in. I think this is how peoples lives get ruined.
     
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  36. dahldennsull

    dahldennsull Living in the best state
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    got Ven at 1.30... it plateaued for a while and I sold at 1.50... i hate myself

    Looks like I'm buying back at $6
     
  37. colonel_forbin

    colonel_forbin Well-Known Member
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    Some friends and I are about to set up a VEN node. Should have about 25k VEN
     
  38. Louis Holth

    Louis Holth but we also just might be those motherfuckers
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    Well I’m officially heavy on VEN. Wheels up to Detroit. By the time I land I should have enough money to purchase detroit.
     
  39. Sammy Meatballs

    Sammy Meatballs DeBoer on the Floor
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    Currently doing the same thing.
     
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  40. Goose

    Goose Hi
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    Been on the VEN train for 2 weeks welcome aboard friends
     
  41. kinghill

    kinghill Cool American Flavour
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    The long-term "oh it's definitely going > 100" thought is what led me to buy some NEBL at $56. Gotta remember the long-term outlook is fine but pick better entry points. Not the damn ATH.
     
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  42. Pharm

    Pharm Right Handed
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    Can you message me the private key so I can add to it?
     
  43. CF3234

    CF3234 Fan of: Bandwagons
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    What is a ven node?
     
  44. Pharm

    Pharm Right Handed
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    However the money from vechain was put into PRL so I actually made the better choice as of now.
     
  45. HuskerInMiami

    HuskerInMiami Well-Known Member
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    Check out this buy wall on FCT
    upload_2018-1-19_9-55-22.png
     
  46. wheyum

    wheyum Well-Known Member
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    That VEN Hype has me selling on Binance: WTC, EOS have to go (Maybe SUB too).
    I keep telling myself i will buy more of this really good stuff... Originally bought VEN at $2.00 but only 50.

    FCT buy wall is nice i reckon. My portfolio isn't going to be very pretty until it gets up closer to $70 again.
     
  47. HuskerInMiami

    HuskerInMiami Well-Known Member
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    Price jumped from $50 to $52 after first wall showed up....
    New Whale looking to buy 70 BTC of Factom:
    upload_2018-1-19_10-22-3.png
     
  48. colonel_forbin

    colonel_forbin Well-Known Member
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    For serious?
     
  49. Pharm

    Pharm Right Handed
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    Nah, I'm joking please never send me a private key. I wouldn't actually take it but someone would. What do the VEN nodes pay out anyways?