Official Ukraine Thread: Putin On The Fritz

Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by AU3kGT, Jun 21, 2015.

  1. timo

    timo g'day, mate
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    I wasn't around much yesterday; I'm presuming this piece was discussed?

    Something that's been keeping me up at night (including tonight); I don't see any "good" ways out of this war for any side. Putin made a series of tragic mistakes and he can't afford to lose in Ukraine or he'll lose his government.

    I can say for certain that the hawks in the west calling for more direct NATO actions need to shut the fuck up. It's not at all helpful and shows a real lack of understanding of the gravity of the current situation.
     
  2. Can I Spliff it

    Can I Spliff it Is Butterbean okay?
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  3. Taffy

    Taffy Token Brit poster
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    We know. We know.
     
  4. Imurhuckleberry

    Imurhuckleberry Avid spectator of windmill warriors
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    Same side hustle?
     
  5. Imurhuckleberry

    Imurhuckleberry Avid spectator of windmill warriors
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    538 had a podcast about that yesterday. Take was that the polls there might be a bit off but they are designed well and so are probably not dramatically off.
     
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  6. Bruce Wayne

    Bruce Wayne Billionaire Playboy
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    This is the first in a rapid series of steps that ends in the zombie apocalypse
     
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  7. southlick

    southlick "Better Than You"
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  8. shaolin5

    shaolin5 Well-Known Member
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    Oh ok. That's good to know

     
  9. Doc Louis

    Doc Louis Well-Known Member
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    If they think what Fitch is doing is bad, wait until Abercrombie cuts them off.
     
  10. shaolin5

    shaolin5 Well-Known Member
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  11. —

    Well-Known Member
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    I hope Putin takes an off ramp and doesn’t accelerate into oncoming traffic.
     
  12. —

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  13. —

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  14. electronic

    electronic It’s satire!
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    I have never seen this argument fleshed out in a way that made sense in any context, and I’ve seen it a lot.
     
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  15. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    I think this is a completely childish position to hold
     
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  16. IV

    IV Freedom is the right of all sentient beings
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    then establish the no fly zone is the other option
     
  17. IV

    IV Freedom is the right of all sentient beings
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    this is by far the biggest issue, let’s rip off this bandaid
     
  18. CaneKnight

    CaneKnight FSU Private Board's Fav Poster
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    LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT BABY!!!!
     
  19. CaneKnight

    CaneKnight FSU Private Board's Fav Poster
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    Anyone claiming dehumanizing language hasn’t been used to describe these “white civilized Europeans” vs say the way the media talks about Palestinians or Yemeni can literally eat my ass. :laugh:

    Y’all can fuck all the way off. Lying ass mother fuckers

     
  20. CaneKnight

    CaneKnight FSU Private Board's Fav Poster
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    It would also be really nice of the media would spend more than five minutes talking about the racism African and Indian people have faced from both the Ukrainian and Polish people while trying to leave the country. Fun knowing that kind of intense hatred for black and brown skin amongst large swaths of populations extends well beyond our borders. How very “civilized” of these European societies
     
  21. CoastalOrange

    CoastalOrange Well-Known Member
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    Not necessarily disagreeing but then the question becomes what is she (or you) suggesting we do? Lots of finger wagging but I haven't read any suggestions or ideas on what is the "right" choice then. If there is a better path, I'm sure you (in a general sense) could get people on board.
     
  22. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    Having some accountability mechanism for the weapons is in her initial tweet that set this off
     
  23. Jake Barnes

    Jake Barnes Team Mac OG
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    I expected it from the Polish because they’ve rebuffed European efforts to open the borders for Muslim refugees for years. What are the Ukrainians doing? Limiting their access to the border?
     
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  24. CaneKnight

    CaneKnight FSU Private Board's Fav Poster
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    Ukrainians have literally been removing them evacuation busses (some of them have literally been told “no blacks”) and forcing them to walk for miles to borders where they of course are denied entry because these “civilized” Europeans don’t want blacks or browns in their country. So “civilized” of them, but these “civilized” Europeans are more than happy to offer their money and homes to anyone with white skin
     
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  25. electronic

    electronic It’s satire!
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    Impossible to know the best path in an incredibly complex situation like this, which is why it’s always relevant and necessary to question decisions and change strategies as conditions change. To me, our entire goal should be the least loss of life possible, which I believe would be best achieved by significant humanitarian aid, sharing of intelligence, and strategic and limited injections of weaponry to appropriate parties while simultaneously continuing to escalate sanctions.

    It’s not a patriotic show of force that many people want, but to me, it seems like the best way to keep the most people alive in the short and long terms. If Russia escalates, obviously that calculus changes.
     
  26. CoastalOrange

    CoastalOrange Well-Known Member
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    Still playing catch-up so no idea if posted yet, but some sad (though feel-good) viewing

     
  27. Jake Barnes

    Jake Barnes Team Mac OG
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    About what I thought; can’t even really pretend to be shocked.

    The US has a cavalcade of its own issues with race, but it pales in comparison to what happens outside of a very few select countries in the world. Racism, tribalism, and nationalism are just the same moniker for one side of an exceedingly ugly coin.

    Idk of any fix outside of time and exposure, but it will stay ugly in the intermittent period. Whites in America have had 150 years (really 50 at best) to get used to the idea of living side-by-side with black and brown people and we still fuck it up. Euros have had even less and the East Asians have had almost none at all. I won’t even pretend to act like I understand the frustration and anger it must engender, but I do what I can to fix it in my own orbit.
     
  28. CoastalOrange

    CoastalOrange Well-Known Member
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    And that jumped the shark to seemingly suggesting that we shouldn't be offering them weapons or aid. As I said, I feel like we have a fair amount of people who finger-wag every chance they get but do not offer any suggestions. This is a tough issue and I don't believe there is a single "right answer" as all have pros and cons. But being the person that only says "bad idea" without offering any suggestions as to what would be a good idea isn't helpful to anyone and is just infuriating.
     
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  29. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    No one that I saw said we shouldn't offer any aid or weapons
     
  30. Illinihockey

    Illinihockey Well-Known Member
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    It’s weird to see that people are just finding out other countries are racist too
     
  31. CoastalOrange

    CoastalOrange Well-Known Member
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    You spent the better part of 3 pages pointing out how bad it is to offer weapons to other parties in times and situations like this (and I'm not suggesting you're wrong) as it comes back to bite the US on the ass. So I'm asking if you have any ideas as to how it should be handled or if you only want to come in here and point out things that are wrong and that's it?
     
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  32. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    We literally just went over that you can make arms deals conditional on accountability measures. I'm not as worried about the humanitarian aid for obvious reasons.

    Handing them 30 migs for example is a step that should be really well audited and it seems it is being done so that's good.
     
  33. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    Just handing a country an air force is a big deal.
     
  34. Jake Barnes

    Jake Barnes Team Mac OG
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    Living for two years in the ROK was an eye-opener on that front, no doubt about it.

    I think if you’re an American in your early to mid-20s, there isn’t a much better opportunity for you than to try living as an expat for at least a year. Gives you a totally different perspective on the US that can’t really be replicated through other means.
     
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  35. Parab00n

    Parab00n Well-Known Member
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    We spent hours debating small Arms and ammo accountability, the process of accounting for migs compared to small arms is not even remotely close to the same thing.
     
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  36. Parab00n

    Parab00n Well-Known Member
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    This wasn't the debate
     
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  37. double RL

    double RL old school
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    To take a piss apparently
     
  38. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    I missed this detail then but I think all of it is important.
     
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  39. Illinihockey

    Illinihockey Well-Known Member
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    Ya, I don’t even know how you give away a multimillion dollar plane without knowing who is getting it.
     
  40. Illinihockey

    Illinihockey Well-Known Member
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    I can’t believe we gave away an entire air force to some guys behind the Walmart.
     
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  41. CaneKnight

    CaneKnight FSU Private Board's Fav Poster
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    Is it your natural state of being to act like a cunt or do you work on it in the mirror at night?

    No one is really surprised at all by the racism by the Polish (Disgusting piece of shit country), but you're the lying fuck that was in here denying any kind of dehumanizing language being used to describe this conflict by the media.

    I expect nothing less from "Civilized" Europeans. Racism is their favorite past time, but even I'm shocked you'd deny shit like a bus ride to people literally fleeing a country with you. That's an unthinkable level of cruelty even for someone like myself who's default state is just assuming most people are dogshit at this stage in the game called life.
     
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  42. bwi2

    bwi2 Not affiliated with BWI
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    I thought Omar’s point - which I agree with - is that the small arms (assault rifles, RPGs) are riskier because they historically go missing. Even if you’re really smart about who you give them to, people get killed or captured in battle, or have to abandon positions, and then someone else is in possession of your shit.

    I’m not particularly worried about the MiGs from an accountability standpoint because complex weaponry like that is hard to maintain - although I am worried about that level of transfer from an escalation standpoint. Flooding war torn countries with assault rifles and easily portable/easy to maintain weapons and light vehicles has been a scourge for a huge swath of the world for decades, and her point on this front is exceptionally reasonable and merits consideration. Stingers and Javelins, somewhere in between.

    But really, everyone clamoring for more action ought to read the excellent piece timo posted at the top of this page. This is a much more precarious situation than people are giving it credit for.
     
  43. HuskerInMiami

    HuskerInMiami Well-Known Member
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    If the US was being attacked right now, would I allow the proud boys into our military to fight against occupiers? Yes.
     
  44. bwi2

    bwi2 Not affiliated with BWI
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    And if I were Canada, I still wouldn’t arm them
     
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  45. CaneKnight

    CaneKnight FSU Private Board's Fav Poster
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    If the US was being attacked I’d be on my way to Canada or Mexico. Fuck ever fighting for this country :laugh:

    Especially with these Nazis and white supremacists. This is their country so they can fight for it by themselves
     
  46. *DIESEL*

    *DIESEL* Half man, half amazing
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  47. Can I Spliff it

    Can I Spliff it Is Butterbean okay?
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    Having seen that patch pop up on soldiers occasionally even in AP stories is disheartening
     
  48. AHebrewToo

    AHebrewToo Albino Hebrew Extraordinaire
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    Sometimes I wonder how much cleaner TMB threads would be if Lyrtch ‘s AP US history teacher hadn’t gotten him into Howard Zinn back when he was 16.
     
  49. electronic

    electronic It’s satire!
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    Would you be in favor of opening prisons and arming them to fight? Prisoners at Gitmo?
     
  50. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    Imagine thinking I was in AP history