***2019 MLB Thread: Making Daddy Proud***

Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by teel, Mar 28, 2019.

  1. MG2

    MG2 No judgement in brainstorming
    Donor

    Yep. Pitcher extensions for guys as talented as him seem like they'll almost always be one-sided depending on health.

    Good for the Yanks they didn't dump Happ after signing Cole to save money.
     
    tylerdolphin likes this.
  2. electronic

    electronic Moderately-Known Member
    Donor
    Georgia Bulldogs

    It’s pretty unlikely that multiple teams and specific allegations from a player on the record are completely wrong, but whatevs.
     
  3. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    Pitchers are paranoid about that stuff. Every pitcher thinks every team that lights them up had his signs. Allegations aren't new. Proof is.
     
  4. electronic

    electronic Moderately-Known Member
    Donor
    Georgia Bulldogs

    What other teams prior to the Astros were accused by multiple clubs of stealing signs to journalists?
     
  5. Tobias

    Tobias dan “the man qb1” jones fan account
    Donor
    North Carolina TarheelsAtlanta BravesCharlotte HornetsNew York GiantsManchester CityNational LeagueLos Angeles Angels of AnaheimBarAndGrill

    dbl can you seriously not read? it’s alarming how often and consistently you misrepresent arguments and you being illiterate is the kindest explanation
     
  6. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    Every single one going back 100 years. Accusations aren't new.
     
  7. Dr. Richard Cranium

    Dr. Richard Cranium I'm sorry, the card says Moops
    Donor TMB OG
    Notre Dame Fighting IrishMilwaukee Brewers altMilwaukee BucksGreen Bay PackersTiger Woods

  8. electronic

    electronic Moderately-Known Member
    Donor
    Georgia Bulldogs

    Then, unironically:
     
    Tobias and southside like this.
  9. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    I'll break it down.

    - It's very common for pitchers and teams to think the other team stole their signs. It's easier than "I sucked last night."
    - That doesn't mean all or any of those accusations are true.

    While it's possible they are true, I'll defer to them not being true until proof is shown. If you want to believe every accusation, go for it.
     
  10. electronic

    electronic Moderately-Known Member
    Donor
    Georgia Bulldogs

    So basically, everybody is doing false accusations!
     
  11. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    No, I never said that. There's always been accusations but no proof. I don't believe every accusation. You can if that's your cup of tea though.
     
  12. MG2

    MG2 No judgement in brainstorming
    Donor

    So, just for the record, you're saying it's not true the Astros used buzzers in 2019 or cheated to improve spin rates for pitchers because nothing has ever been proven? Seems to me those are just accusations that haven't been proven true.
     
    Tobias, electronic and southside like this.
  13. poor paul

    poor paul Well-Known Member
    Donor
    Houston Rockets

  14. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    Maybe they are true, maybe they aren't. I'm not going to say "They almost certainly used buzzers!" with the proof we have.

    Why is this so hard for you to grasp? Lack of proof doesn't meant it 100% didn't happen. Lack of proof means you can't say it did 100% happen.
     
  15. swiggs

    swiggs Well-Known Member

    I feel like MLB should feel partly responsible for allowing these things to happen. I know the Astros are getting killed but the MLB should be feeling some heat too for allowing whole situation. Are there any committees that can prevent things like this? Rules or ethics? Especially with the amount of money in gambling.
     
    steamengine and dblplay1212 like this.
  16. MG2

    MG2 No judgement in brainstorming
    Donor

    I think the biggest thing MLB deserves criticism for is they seem to have been getting reports of this stuff going on for years from team execs and did nothing about it. Then, Fiers goes on the record and it turns into a massive thing about one team and we're kind of left to guess what else was happening. In the tweet below, Lucroy says the A's went to MLB about this exact stuff two years ago and nothing happened.

    In hindsight, MLB needed to essentially do the whole immunity thing as a league-wide effort to find out what was happening and then put rules in place to stop what it before something like could blow up in their faces. In hindsight, there's really no excuse to not do that following the Red Sox thing in September of 17 when Manfred decided he cared about this stuff.

     
    Weedlord420, swiggs and Rammer Jammer like this.
  17. Rammer Jammer

    Rammer Jammer Fan Of: Bama, Braves, Packers, MSU Baseball
    Donor
    Alabama Crimson TideMississippi State BulldogsSeattle MarinersAtlanta BravesGreen Bay Packers

    If teams complained about this two year ago and Manfred did nothing it’s time he packs his bags.
     
  18. steamengine

    steamengine I don’t want to press one for English!
    Donor
    LiverpoolTexas Tech Red Raiders altTravelHouston Oilers

    These millennial snowflakes hate hard work smh.
     
  19. poor paul

    poor paul Well-Known Member
    Donor
    Houston Rockets

    Big Papi making an ass out of himself, must be a day that ends in Y.
     
  20. bwi2

    bwi2 Not affiliated with BWI
    Donor
    Duke Blue DevilsWashington NationalsArsenalUSA Basketball

    What unproven allegations are good enough to start handing out the indefinite suspensions?
     
  21. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    You keep saying this yet I never said it. Weird behavior.
     
  22. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    What I actually said:


    Use the threat of lengthy suspensions for not cooperating to get players to talk. Cops do it all the time. Threaten high and offer a plea in the middle. At no point did I say to suspend them based on unproven allegations. I think they could have proved it without giving full immunity to every player. Acting like the only way to prove they cheated was to give every player immunity it dumb. If that's how it worked for the rest of us, nobody would go to jail bc we'd just get immunity for telling what we did.
     
  23. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    "Hey it's going to be a little work for us to prove you murdered that guy. How about you just tell us what happened and we'll give you immunity. Cool?"

    Neat.
     
  24. theregionsitter

    theregionsitter Well-Known Member
    TMB OG
    Notre Dame Fighting IrishChicago White SoxIndianapolis ColtsColumbus Blue JacketsColumbus Crew

    he needs to go
     
    Lenin, ZeroPointZero, swiggs and 2 others like this.
  25. MG2

    MG2 No judgement in brainstorming
    Donor

    Even if they proved it, they couldn't suspend them. This is the point you seem to think is just no big deal.

    You keep comparing this to police and law enforcement investigations, but DAs aren't bringing charges against people if they don't think they can get a conviction in court. Manfred couldn't win his version of a trial, which meant there wasn't a point to bringing the charges. At that point, you're threatening the union with lifetime bans you aren't even willing to back up, and your end result is worse than it is now because now you're in the same PR disaster with the added bonus of an even angrier union heading into the next CBA talks. You've concocted this fantasy world to get the end result you wanted which could not occur in reality.

    If you want to criticize Manfred in this situation, the issue is him not seeing this coming down the road and working out a means for punishment for players based on teams that break these specific rules with the union before this inevitably blew up in the faces of everyone.
     
    electronic and poor paul like this.
  26. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    At least TRY. Make the union the bad guys. And hell, 90% of the union wants them punished. Maybe the union leadership caves to pressure from its members and agrees to some type of punishment. Maybe not. Sorry, walking in and saying "Ahh damn guys we know you did it but it's an uphill battle to punish you so just go on and tell us what happened so we don't have to do any work and we'll give you immunity. Do better next time fellas." doesn't work for me. They offered up immunity within a day of speaking to the union about it. You act like that was his only course of action and I think that's weak af.
     
  27. devine

    devine Make Devine A Mod Again
    Donor
    West Virginia MountaineersPhoenix SunsPittsburgh PenguinsTiger WoodsNational LeagueBarAndGrillCoors Light

    Ha, probably why the pirates were the only team to win a series in Houston

     
    Lenin and Vinegar Strokes like this.
  28. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    And DA's threaten shit to people all the time to get them to talk. Doesn't mean they have a case to prove it at that time but they do it. Again, I'm not saying he should come in and slam down 80 game bans with no proof. But going in and saying "Cooperate and you'll get 80 games. Don't cooperate and we'll prove it without you and then you get life" was an option he could have gone with. Maybe a couple roll, maybe none do. But try. Just throwing out immunity for all within a day was a joke. "It's going to be hard to punish these guys" isn't a good rationalization for me.
     
  29. bwi2

    bwi2 Not affiliated with BWI
    Donor
    Duke Blue DevilsWashington NationalsArsenalUSA Basketball

    "Cooperate and get 80 games, don't and get life" isn't an effective negotiating tactic when neither penalty would withstand a grievance
     
    Lenin and MG2 like this.
  30. Dr. Richard Cranium

    Dr. Richard Cranium I'm sorry, the card says Moops
    Donor TMB OG
    Notre Dame Fighting IrishMilwaukee Brewers altMilwaukee BucksGreen Bay PackersTiger Woods

  31. LSUTigers1986

    LSUTigers1986 Well-Known Member
    Donor
    LSU TigersWashington NationalsWashington Redskins

    If we hadn’t won game 7, Scherzer would be charged with attempted murder on Saturday.

    Max would’ve gone full Rick Vaughn... I want Parkman. Give me Park, errr Bregman.
     
  32. spagett

    spagett Got ya, spooked ya
    Donor

    Coppy cheated though... that's why he got fired
     
    ashy larry and Owsley like this.
  33. MG2

    MG2 No judgement in brainstorming
    Donor

    Always thought it was weird that Hart got nothing from MLB for that scandal. Also weird how TV can cloud your view of someone because it's hard for me to picture Hart yelling at anyone, and especially doing it in a demeaning/personal way.
     
  34. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    Again, it may not have worked. The end result may have ended up the same. The optics would be much better for Manfred if he at least tried and could blame the union though.
     
  35. MG2

    MG2 No judgement in brainstorming
    Donor

    A lot of the focus of the people affected by the cheating has been on the shitty pitchers who got smashed. Verducci's story on Kershaw was tough to read, considering that start cemented the choker legacy for so many people. You can tell how aware of that he is throughout those quotes and how he doesn't even want to think about it.
     
    ZeroPointZero and tylerdolphin like this.
  36. soulfly

    soulfly Well-Known Member
    Donor
    Seattle MarinersSeattle SeahawksVancouver CanucksBarcelonaSeattle Supersonics

    :roll: god damn, what a take.
     
    steamengine and Clown Baby like this.
  37. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    https://www.innocenceproject.org/guilty-pleas-on-the-rise-criminal-trials-on-the-decline/

    The National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL) recently published a report titled, The Trial Penalty: The Sixth Amendment Right to Trial on the Verge of Extinction and How to Save It, that examines specific cases, data and statistics to explain the decline in the criminal trial and the steady rise in plea deals. Over the last 50 years, defendants chose trial in less than three percent of state and federal criminal cases—compared to 30 years ago when 20 percent of those arrested chose trial. The remaining 97 percent of cases were resolved through plea deals.

    The report reasons that the “trial penalty” is the underlying reason for the discrepancy in the shorter length of sentences offered pre-trial through plea deals versus the much longer and more severe sentences offered post-trial. According to the report:

    Guilty pleas have replaced trials for a very simple reason: individuals who choose to exercise their Sixth Amendment right to trial face exponentially higher sentences if they invoke the right to trial and lose…This [trial] penalty is now so severe and pervasive that it has virtually eliminated the constitutional right to a trial. To avoid the penalty, accused persons must surrender many other fundamental rights which are essential to a fair justice system.

    Because a defendant is more likely to receive a lesser sentence if they choose a plea deal rather than a trial, why risk the possibility of receiving more time behind bars?
     
  38. soulfly

    soulfly Well-Known Member
    Donor
    Seattle MarinersSeattle SeahawksVancouver CanucksBarcelonaSeattle Supersonics

    :facepalm:

    Dude. I’m on of the more obsessed posters on this board as it relates to criminal justice and the penal system.

    Comparing mostly impoverished people, that are ill-informed of their rights (and generally dealing with overloaded public defenders that can’t afford them proper time to defend their case) is in no way, shape, or form, comparable to million dollar baseball players with union backing :roll:
     
  39. bwi2

    bwi2 Not affiliated with BWI
    Donor
    Duke Blue DevilsWashington NationalsArsenalUSA Basketball

    You really think the optics for Manfred would be better if he was throwing out lifetime bans for sign stealing? That baseball would be better off if the PA was backed into a corner by insane discipline that would force a strike/lockout instead of cooperation on instituting penalties moving forward?
     
    poor paul likes this.
  40. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    I'm not comparing the people. I'm comparing the tactics used. Threatening to bury someone if they don't cooperate works. We have years of data to back it up. Tons of innocent people are in jail bc they took 5 years opposed to gambling 40 years on a trial.
     
  41. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    I don't think it would have gotten to that. I think a few guys would have rolled quickly and then you'd have the rest lining up to get their deal for 40 games or 80 games or whatever. Everyone but the Astros players would be happy, the exact opposite of what we have now. The worst thing that happens in that situation is nobody rolls and they hide behind the union. In that case, Manfred gets to put it all on the union.
     
  42. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    Y'all seem to be content with Manfred throwing his hands up after a day and saying "Well damn this would be hard. Just give them immunity to get the story and we'll all move on and hope everyone is cool with that." I'm just not. He had other options to try.
     
  43. soulfly

    soulfly Well-Known Member
    Donor
    Seattle MarinersSeattle SeahawksVancouver CanucksBarcelonaSeattle Supersonics

    Yeah. It’s an incredibly efficient tactic that is used against people that don’t have the means for actual legal recourse. Because they’re poor. And scared into it.

    “If they don’t cooperate”. Bud. There’s no cooperation needed from the defendant in a criminal trial. They don’t have to testify or anything.
     
  44. MG2

    MG2 No judgement in brainstorming
    Donor

    I'm sure a lot of people hate this page, but this is some good shit, IMO.
     
    poor paul, Owsley and Lenin like this.
  45. bwi2

    bwi2 Not affiliated with BWI
    Donor
    Duke Blue DevilsWashington NationalsArsenalUSA Basketball

    They don’t admit to using a buzzer now without the threat of punishment.
     
  46. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    Cooperate = don't force the prosecution to go through the work of a trial

    People with money take deals too. It's not just about money. It's also about not gambling 20 years when you can take 2.

    We've gotten way off track here. I'm not a fan of giving the players immunity without even trying to negotiate or go for more. If y'all are, so be it. I think it was weak af by Manfred and that's why people are pissed.
     
  47. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    Not sure how that's relevant to telling the truth to avoid excessive punishment. They have no reason to tell the truth now. There's no punishment hanging over their head.
     
  48. dblplay1212

    dblplay1212 Well-Known Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideNew York YankeesJacksonville JaguarsTiger WoodsSouth Alabama Jaguars2pacSneakersWu-tang

    Goodnight.
     
  49. soulfly

    soulfly Well-Known Member
    Donor
    Seattle MarinersSeattle SeahawksVancouver CanucksBarcelonaSeattle Supersonics

    I guess we have a different understanding of cooperation. You just got done talking about the innocent people behind bars because of their “cooperation”.
     
  50. bwi2

    bwi2 Not affiliated with BWI
    Donor
    Duke Blue DevilsWashington NationalsArsenalUSA Basketball

    You don’t think they could be punished for lying during the investigation? That’s literally the only way they could get in trouble now. If they’re not going to cop to it when lying gets punished and telling the truth doesn’t, they’re not going to cop to it when shutting up doesn’t get punished and telling the truth does.

    I appreciate that you can acknowledge that you’ve proposed excessive punishment but think the union would eat shit for fighting it. It would be a PR disaster for Manfred and the league. I’m not even saying that this was all he could do or that it’s a good outcome, but it’s better than a strike.