Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- He does command the Knights of the Vale though...a kingdom as yet untouched by the war
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- Yes, but I guess since they have barely been spoken about in the books, they don't seem formidable.
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- In that interview I read on here yesterday George says that he tells the HBO creators things about the endings of the series. If that's the case the show makes it much more pronounced that Littlefinger and Varys aren't on the same side (unless they are just going out of their way not to appear to and they are the masters in this regard) and since book 5 makes westeros seem vulnerable and since Vary is probably on invader's side, maybe that's because Littlefinger is supposed to be the final boss, besides the Other's. I hope they all get caught up and die in Bealish schemes.
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- I've been reading the series since 2001. Basically waited 10 years for a new Jon/Dany chapter. And literally neither of them got anything done that could not have been done in 3-4 chapters. 8 fucking cliff hangers. It wouldn't have made me mad if he just killed Jon. I mean, probably mad, but I least I know what happened and dont have to wait 5 years wondering. And I still doubt Jon is dead, given Mel's chapter about asking to see AA and all she sees is Snow - then she sees A man, A wolf, a Man again. Plus the Varaymyr prologue warging chapter. Jon wargs into Ghost at the end, the watch entombs him in ice in the wall, he wargs back into his body and becomes AA. I jsut hope Victarion goes all Viking on Mereen. I actually wouldn't mid if he won the whole damn thing. Love some Victarion. Victarion and Strong Belwas are llike the Legion of Doom. And here are all the POV's he has to get together for the next book Dany Vicatarion Tyrion Sansa Arya Bran Sam Asha/Theon Griff Jaime/Brienne Cersei Jon/Mel/Stannis - Wall POV Davos Area Hotah - Dorne POV thats actually not that bad... fuck that fat bastard
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- What is the prevailing thought on ramsey's letter? What's true and what is BS, if anything? Lots of talk that Stannis isn't dead, and that he doesn't have Theon and Asha. I saw one theory that Jon takes over Stannis' body and that is why Mel was so confused.
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- I think Ramsay has Mance - Abel - Bael the Bard. He has flayed him. Wrung all the info from him about Stannis, the sword, Mel, etc.... Ramsay is more pissed about losing his "arya" than worried about killing stannis. Ramsay is one sick fucker.
Spoiler Maybe that was the thing that Martin was struggling with that needed to be fixed in order for things to play out.
difficult to get moving towards a conclusion. it took a whole book for dany to realize that she needed to leave. plus the three dragons are basically uncontrollable apart from drogon to a degree
It took a whole book for her to realize Spoiler that she needed to stop being so weak and go back to being the dragon queen she needs to be to get shit done.
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- Are you calling Mance, Bael the Bard figuratively, in that he was reborn as him? Also, I forgot who Abel is.
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- Interesting theories, tidbits and questions from Tower of the Hand Book thread Part I (my comments only appear prior to ellipses')... -The prophecy concerning Khal Drogo has at least been partially fulfilled. When the sun rises in the east and sets in the west referring to Quentyn whose symbol is the starburst, travelling from the East and dying in the West. -This phrase is used twice in the book..."The wind was gusting, cold as the breath of the ice dragon in the tales Old Nan had told when Jon was a boy." -Is Patchface an agent of the drowned god, much in the way that Mel is the light, and Bran the God's of old? -Lot's of rumors that someone else wrote the letter from Ramsey...suspicions include Thorne. -wtf ever happened to Rob legitimizing Jon and how does that play out? -where the fuck is Rickon? -some thoughts that Rickon is in Greywater Watch and that is where Davos shows up and the letter about Jon's accession to Winterfell by Rob is also discovered -Does Lady Selyse have involvement in the Jon plot? -never picked up that Stannis and Mel were banging..."Melisandre had spent the night in her chair by the fire, as she often did. With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use." -GRRM had several more chapters written for ADWD which his editors postponed for TWOW -Mereen is pretty much a parody of Iraq/Afghanistan? Dany is trying to rebuild a nation and make it better before she can go home, and she is using her seasoned troops to train the local former slaves to be able to defend themselves before she leaves, all the while dealing with an internal insurgency and threats from neighboring Pakistan--err, Yunkai-- while also dealing with the corrupt ruling establishment within Mereen, not knowing which locals are really on her side and which are trying to just gain power themselves. -"Lightbringer is the Night's Watch. It's so painfully obvious when you go and read their vows a little more closely." -in one of the JON chapters, there is a line - "the snow flakes are falling asking JON..will you dance with me".... -what if the mormont's raven is Bran warging keeping an eye on his brother because he might have seen whats gonna happen to Jon much before. maybe its not Mel who will save Jon but Bran. maybe it was him yelling KING n JON SNOW when Jon thought it was unusual... -Jon was controlled in his emotions when NED was unjustly executed... BRAN n RICKON were killed (supposedly) and WINTERFELL ( his home) was burned down.. SANSA taken as hostage..n above all RED WEDDING...if he could withstand all that... what made him run after Bolton based on a letter? -Who is Lemore? GRRM seemed to hint that there was more to her than just a Septa. -If we all accept Jon's last chapter was told from Jon's POV, and we as the reader were experiancing it all through Jon's POV as Jon did, after the third knife, Jon falls face down into the snow...how did he even know about the fourth knife, especially since the words state...he never felt the fourth knife??? That leads me to believe, jon wasn't jon.
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- Interesting theories, tidbits and questions from Tower of the Hand Book thread Part II (my comments only appear prior to ellipses')... -in GoT, when bran is falling from the window.. the three eyed crow shows him why he should live- it shows Robb, Ned, Catelyn, Sansa weeping and Jon all alone in the wall... and then 3 eyed crow says thats why you should live... -If Stannis were dead then, Theon would most likely be dead as well, because it would be very difficult for him and Jayne to escape due to the weather. -Jon gets his butt handed to him by Mance, not Rattleshirt. I suspect *seeing* something different than what you're feeling is a tough fighting position. Rattleshirt and Mance are not identically shaped, for example, so if Mance has a longer reach and Jon is judging the reach based on seeing Rattleshirt's arm, Jon will misjudge constantly in a fight. -Lemore fits the description of Tyene's mother. And it seems if Ashara were disgraced and fleeing hiding out as a septa might be a good option, but her heart wouldn't be in it - she might be willing to break her vows, or might have been taken advantage of by smooth-operator Oberyn. -we have 2 corpses available, a glamour capable witch, and a warg! The two corpses turn and the Warg takes them over (let's just say it is possible, perhaps being beyond the Wall makes it more possible), Mel glamours them both, one looking like the knight being smashed about by Wun Wun, the other looking of Jon. Perhaps the Warg and Mel have aided Jon in Warging into the one that is glamoured to look like him, explaining why he cannot grasp his sword easily, explaining why Ghost snaps at him. Ghost hates the smell of death. Plus, Jon couldn't object so much since no live person would be risking themselves for him. It would also make sense as to why Jon felt only cold and no 4th dagger, he'd left the glamoured corpse and was back in the ice cell where the corpse was supposed to be. -
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- I thought Osha took him to the island of Skagos because the last lines in the last Davos chapter says this.."For half a heartbeat Davos considered asking Wyman Manderley to send him back to the Wolf's Den, to Ser Bartimus with his tales and Garth with his lethal ladies. In the Den even prisoners ate porridge in the morning. But there were other places in this world where men were known to break their fast on human flesh." I've read multiple times that the inhabitants of Skagos are cannibals. Am I completely off base on this?
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- haven't given it much thought, but I saw that theorized as well. Perhaps with all of the storms, things did not work out that way?
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- More fodder from that thread to chew on... -In the chapter with the House of the Undying, there is a scene with a cloth dragon on stilts being cheered by a crowd. This seems to fit the Mummer's Dragon prophecy from Quaithe. That paragraph ends with Dany being referred to as Slayer of Lies. and the authors interpretation... "Hence, I'm inclined to think that Aegon is a fake. It fits the narrative better for him to be a fake--putting concerns about succession and the Martell-Targaryen marriage contract to rest. Somehow, the whole thing stinks of Blackfyre. I think Varys and Illyrio have Blackfyre interests at heart more than Targaryen. Also, I expect Dany/dragons to be involved in the death of Aegon."
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- I am starting to buy into this... the 3 heads are Jon, Dany, and Tyrion. Aegon is a mummers farce. And will burn like the cloth dragon he is.
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- Another interesting theory... Jon went into Ghost, and that the prologue set that up...maybe Melisandre will breath life back into Jon's dead body a la Thoros w/ Beric and Cat, and Jon's actual "rebirth" will be him skinchanging from Ghost back into his real body...this should leave Ghost unharmed, as I understand, and everybody will be happy...
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- Super cop-out theory, but good chapter summary nonetheless... A review of the chapter: 1. Everyone at Castle Black appears in the chapter and there seem to be some major developments. 2. Stannis's queen has crowned a new king of the wildlings and made marriages for all of them. 3. He finds out that Val is to marry Sir Patrek. 3. Mel gives another dire warning that Jon completely brushes off despite the things that she has been right about. Strangely, he even questions Stannis being AA reborn and she doesn't respond. 4. Jon has meetings with Bowen and Yarwyck where he really doesn't respond to their criticisms at all, does nothing to convince them as a matter of fact, moving through the scene barely responding to it. 5. He has a meeting with Tormund that takes hours and yet we see none of it, it goes by in a flash. 6. And what has Jon decided to do? He's going to lead a ranging to Hardhome in the winter storms with 50 wildlings and an unknown number of Night's Watch, leaving the Wall virtually undefended. He's going to somehow bring enough food. He's going to beat the wights and triumphantly lead the wildlings back to the wall. 7. Wait, he gets a terrible message from Bolton. 8. He's now going to triumphantly march to Winterfell by himself, shrugging off his NW vows like a cloak. Not even an apology to the night's watch. Or he'll go with whatever wildlings are willing to join. Leaving the Night's Watch to still go to Hardhome by themselves and find their way back or if they don't...well whatever. 9. Now Wun Wun is pulling of the arms of Sir Patrek exactly the man who is to marry Val. Serves him right for taking Val. 10. Now the Night's Watch is assassinating him with tears in their eyes. He can't move his arms to get at Longclaw. There's a 4th knife and he doesn't feel it only the cold and...[ellipse]. It's a dream sequence. He probably really did receive the message from Bolton and now he's dreaming about how to respond. Otherwise, why the rash decisions? Why the lack of discussion of consequences? How could he think that the wildlings at Hardhome won't all be wights by the time he gets there? And...he doesn't feel the 4th knife in his dream, but he does feel the cold...of his room as he wakes up...hence the ellipse.
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- What I learned from this book: GRRM is an incredible world and character builder, but he is an absolute hack at story telling. Whether Jon is dead or not makes no difference, if not he has gone to the faux death cliff hanger well Way too many times, or if he is dead he did it just to be a contrarian faggot. The series has no direction at all towards a resolution, and there are more moving pieces and unanswered questions than ever before. There is no way to wrap up this series in two more books, hell it barely feels like it's halfway done. The mereenese knot was blamed for the huge delay in completing the book, and yet instead of starting to untie the knot he added to it and wrote in a fucking useless character in quentyn martell, only to kill him off. And a another hidden targ out of nowhere, how uncreative. I can't believe someone called this fat fuck the American Tolkien.
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- That's harsh. I understand your frustration and share a lot of it, but the problem with where he is at in these books is that he is in the middle. Everyone wants quick resolutions, and it is frustrating to wait. As a result I can see some of your frustration, but I will completely judge him when it is over. The same shit was said abotu Jordan with WoT, and either because he planned really well or because Sanderson took over, the books seem to be wrapping up neatly and nicely. The amazing thing about Tolkien is he did it all in 3 books.
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- True about WOT, but consider this; at least in the books when the plot stalled at least the characters grew, if not alway positively(rand), there wasn't much of that in ADWD.
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- So easy to say that with the perspective of the last 2 books, but I could not stand Rand's development for a long time. It is hard to evaluate how characters are growing in a middle book. For example, I think Dany probably learned a lot from what took place, but we just don't know to what ends at this point. Same deal with Tyrion and Jon.
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- Even if I grant all that, he still uses the faux death so much I know I can't be the only one who rolls there eyes everytime someone "dies" at the end of their pov. It's corny at this point.
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- Oh, agreed. The problem is that since they are POV chapters, any loss of consciousness becomes a faux death, Jon (most are guessing), Arya (helmut blow), Brienne (OK, that wasn't a consciousness one but whatever), Catelyn (is that a faux death?), and then you have Davos (told by someone else), Stannis (maybe). Yes, it is fucking annoying.
3 chapters left, 3 chapters i wont be reading, on top of however many books he writes, wont be reading those either I'm done, this isn't fair, it isn't humane, its torturous someone hold me because i feel empty and used
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- Jon is dead, no doubt. And it wasn't a dream, at least I can't see GRRM doing that. But he has to be dead. Why? "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt." He will be born again. Melisandre will raise him. Since the Nights Watch oath is until you die, he will be free of his commitment. He will obtain The Lightbringer, his aunt Dany and her faithful companion Tyrion will fly in on two of the three dragons, give the third to Jon and together they will rule the universe. Or at least whup some fucking Other ass.
Why is everyone spoiler-ing stuff that happens in book five in the "Book Five" thread? Isn't it assumed you have finished before you come in here? Just in case, I'll spoiler my shit, but it seems odd. Spoiler Jon is dead. But Melisandre can raise him. He's the Azor Ahai. But, IMO, The Night's Watch was right: Jon was a horrible leader for them. Too soft-hearted and cryptic. Bring in the wildlings, yeah. But did he ever say, "We have a greater enemy, The Others. If we leave the wildlings out there, they will die at the hands of the Others and become wights. Bring them in and let them fight with us!" No, he just appeared nice and understanding and peace-loving... fucking hippie-ass shit. The Night's Watch are all hard, cold men (for the most part). They were right to kill him. He was no good. Dany is a dumb ass little girl. 1000 pages and you finally figure it out? God, I hated you. Fuck the slaves, fuck the sick, fuck the dying, fuck the stupid people with the stupid purple hair and the stupid gold teeth, get your ass on a goddam dragon and go to Westeros and claim your shit. Fuck. Aegon isn't Aegon. Mummers dragon. GRRM is throwing a red herring. Tyrion needs to buck-up and fuck that dwarf bitch. His story was sooo long. Mansion to river boat to another ship to ship-wrecked to slave to sell sword. Really, George? Maybe could you have skipped some of that superfluous bullshit? The progression from Reek back to Theon was pretty good, especially when his final words (of this book) were, "You have to know your name." He's still a fucking cocksmoker, though. Fucking Dornishmen trying to take the dragons by force. Are the Dornish known for their stupidity or was this an isolated thing? Victarion is a fucking badass. When he threw all those "boy whores" in the ocean, I was all "0_o". Cersei and zombie Gregor (Robert Strong). Should be fun. Glad Arya is gonna be a badass. A Faceless Man with the ability to worg. Nice. Bran kinda scares me. The opening chapter tells us entering a human as a worg and eating human flesh as a worg are abominations. Bran does that shit a lot. Where the fuck is Rickon? Not one single chapter, George? Nothing? All in all, as good as book 4, not as good as 1,2 or 3. Hope book 6 picks it up. Hope its out in less than five years. Shit, I wish GRRM would just release a You Tube video where he says, "OK, I'm tired of writing this shit. Here's what happens:..." If I can unspoiler it, someone speak up and I'll remove the spoiler tags.
I get the feeling that Spoiler Dany is going to torch Yunkai before heading to Westeros. Also, I don't know what to think about Young Griff. Varys and Illyrio are supporting both him and Dany (although she got the dragon eggs and Egg didn't.)
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- As you start to mention there are even more non POV fake deaths: Bran, Rickon, Tyrion (POV), The Hound (a guess), Mance, The Mountain (does that count?), Aegon, Theon, and I'm sure there are more. I mean fuck, enough with that shit. Granted i wrote my original post right as i finished the book so that explains the anger
Spoiler pretty sure he said exactly that actually. Or was that inner dialogue? Spoiler Follow the golden rule of GRRM, if you don't see him unequivocally die from an outside POV he is alive. Besides, the series is called a song of ice and fire, i firmly believe that is a direct reference to Jon. And would GRRM kill him off before he finds out who his parents are? Jesus, i dont think even he is that fucked up. He is probably "dead" but will be resurrected by Melisandre, i dont buy the he warged into someone else theory at all, he doesn't know how to use that power at all. There is a small chance that GRRM is just a faggot that got pissed everyone figured out the R+L=J and killed him off and replaced him with weak ass replacement hidden Targ (Aegon) but i don't think he'd actually do that. He'll be back.
finished it, too many lose ends to the chapters man and I'm starting to believe our boy isnt dead for good
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- Rickon is in Skagos, no doubt in my mind. After collecting myself from the almost ipad breaking rage i went through, Mel will bring Jon back. Jon is AA rebron Dany is the Prince that was Promised. Jon HAS to stop the Others.
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- This is pretty much how I see it. I would also throw in that the nights watch may be lightbringer. I saw a theory that their oath is very similar to the description of the sword. Maybe he finally wins them over after his resurrection.
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- Mance was at the feast when Robert came to winterfell in the first book, like Bael the bard, then changes his name to Abel - (change the letters in Bael) when he rescues "arya". just a neat thing I caught. The last Jon chapter is so off as to what Jon would do. I can see him warging into ghost, or the 'plan' he made with Tormund being to out the assassinators. A man, A wolf, A man - from Mel's chapter plus Varamyrs opening chapter pretty much says Jon should warg into ghost, then warg back into Jon once he is healed.
Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5- Do you think he is bael the bard? If so, wouldn't that make him a relative of Jon's? Also there is no way benjen is left as a loose end. I think he still plays a part. You are probably right about the warging based upon that.