A Dance With Dragons Discussion [Book 5]

Discussion in 'Game of Thrones (ASOIAF)' started by Aegon the Conqueror, Jun 29, 2011.

  1. Arkie Proud

    Arkie Proud The Dungeon Master
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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    I think he meant (correct me if I'm wrong) that when Mance Rayder impersonated a bard to enter the feast at Winterfell during King Robert's feast, he used the name "Bael". Then, when he impersonated a bard to enter Ramsay Bolton's wedding at Winterfell, he used the name "Able", an anagram of Bael.

    Mance... that is one sneaky bastard.
     
  2. Swt

    Swt Well-Known Member
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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    I don't think Jon is gonna get out of the Nights watch. I think the Night's Watch is gonna get out of being the Night's Watch as we know it.

    I think two things are gonna happen: Jon leaving the Wall and the Others crossing the wall. I think the wall needs to come down or some other realistic way for those things to happen.

    Jon's return should be some great chapters next book. I'm more worried about Ghost though. He's trapped in that room isn't he and everyone is gonna think Jon's dead. Even his loyal brother's might want Ghost dead. Also, George might be planning a dragon for Jon and might not think he need's both.
     
  3. Swt

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    and Mance is a new favorite. I hope he gets an unreektified pov next book.
     
  4. Byrnes6D1

    Byrnes6D1 Well-Known Member

    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Mance is pretty cool. Didn't think he was that good of a fighter until he destroyed Jon.

    I could see Jon's resurrection being the first chapter in the next book, or the last in the book. Maybe even into the next book. I just dont think he is dead.

    Also, he was killed in front of EVERYONE. You know the wildlings are going to go ape shit.
     
  5. NYGator

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    I think that whatever happens to him is going to bind the Watch to him as Lightbringer. It is very similar to WoT and the Aiel prophecy with Rand for those who have read the books.

    I went back to book 2 and looked at the language describing Lightbringer and is virtually identical to the watches oath.

    That said, the implication of the language is that Lightbringer doesnt appear until the end of the threat, so it may not be right away.
     
  6. Gritty Badger

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    You know what the BEST part of all of this is? We probably won't ever know what the fuck happens to Jon because that fat sack of shit is going to die on us.

    I don't know if my expectations were just crazy high, but I'm beyond disappointed in the book, even after giving myself some time to cool off over the last Jon POV. Just a complete shitshow in terms of storytelling from page 300 on.
     
  7. NYGator

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Agreed that the first 300 pages was a lot more promising than the last 600. That scares me a little, from the standpoint that he probably wrote most of the first 300 pages 6 years ago, and Aegon is likely a false Dragon anyway.
     
  8. Damion

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  9. colonel_forbin

    colonel_forbin Well-Known Member
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    Alright George, I get it. I fucking get it man. Shit has to go way down before it can come back up. Catharsis and all that bullshit. I know, I have a degree in English and understand how shit like this should be written, but goddamnit imad.

    I mean something good has to happen eventually right?
    no way jon is dead. he'll rise and it'll be awesome. will be like thoros is dondarrion or some shit.

    glad dany finally figured it out. but who knows how long it will take to get back and do all that. my guess is because she cant burn and shit she goes to valyria, gets something to tame the dragons, and dominates.

    we'll probably get insight into rickon next book. manderly said he was somewhere and davos is going to get him. somewhere where they eat people and shit right? dont remember the specifics.
     
  10. LT8

    LT8 Well-Known Member

    Yeah I think Rickon is in Skagos
     
  11. NYGator

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    What is the deal with Jojen. I saw something alluding to the fact that he is going to die. What is the thought process there? Also, are we ever going to see his people/dad?
     
  12. NYGator

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Also, is everyone pretty much in agreement that Bran was inside Mormont's raven?
     
  13. NYGator

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Lightbringer theories...

    I wonder if Jon's sword will become Lightbringer. Is that why he couldn't pull it out? In ADwD Jon is discussing Lightbringer with Clydas and he says, "A sword that makes its own heat...would be a fine thing on the wall." (after deciding that Stannis's was a fake because it was cold)

    Here is the theory that I like the best right now...

    Oath of the Night's Watch...

    "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

    Lightbringer...

    It has been foretold in the books at Asshai that when the stars bleed and the cold winds blow, a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. That sword will be Lightbringer. The one who draws it will be Azor Ahai.

    Melisandre said, "In ancient books of Asshai it is writtent hat there will come a day after a long Summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

    Alternate Theory Pre- ADWD

    "that oath keeper will eventually become light bringer; that is if the dragon theory doesn't work out. I just think there is a reason for Cat coming back from the dead a reason for Dodarrion giving his life for hers and a reason that oath keeper has found it's way to her. Dondarrion already showed that his blood can light a sword on fire, what if the sword is forged from valyrian steel. Only question that remains is who will temper oath keeper in Cat's heart. My guess is either Jon , bran, or Danny "

    and another theory...

    "Now think about the stunning parallels that can be drawn between the initial forging of Lightbringer - sacrificing wife, stabbing to bring forth Lightbringer, several unsuccessful attempts to make Lightbringer previously - and the details of Jon's birth (assuming R+L=J).

    Rhaegar had two children, Rhaenys and Aegon. Both children died (read, broke) because no sacrifice was made in their creation and they were killed by the Mountain (a lion). Again, assuming R+L=J, the third child born to Rhaegar was Jon, which led to to bloody death of Lyanna in childbirth. Obvious parallels can further be drawn between the physical act of stabbing with a sword and the figurative "stabbing" of Jon's creation.

    In my mind, it isn't a stretch that Rhaegar (being fabulously well-read and perhaps the most knowledgeable regarding the PTWP)realized what the prophecy truly meant - that creating a child with Lyanna would lead to her death, but would give the PTWP the weapon needed to defeat the others. Perhaps this was the reason that Rhaegar was struck down at the Trident - he knew that Lyanna was dead, that he caused her death, and he simply gave up."
     
  14. colonel_forbin

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    Jojen is definitely going to die. I mean even he accepts it.

    As far as howland reed, jojen's father, is concerned, I think he somehow meets up with jon and drops the bomb that he is a targaryen because I think it was reed who was with ned when they rescued lyanna and jon. I think he's the one that drops the bomb and then it makes sense to melisandre and boom azar azhai.

    But who knows. I just think the crannogmen come into play eventually, probably by going against the boltons.

    Complete guess and a huge reach but maybe they're the ones that open up the neck for denaerys or griff's army going north.

    I hate george but he rules at the same time
     
  15. Keef

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    In this interview http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/07/12/george-martin-talks-a-dance-with-dragons/

    GRRM mentions a couple of concepts in regards to book 6

    He talks about how much he likes Osha in the TV series and how he might write a bigger part for her in book 6 (my guess is she becomes rickon's POV)

    He also mentions "So Mago is not dead in the books. And, in fact, he’s going to be a recurring character in Winds of Winter. He’s a particularly nasty bloodrider to one of the other Khals that’s broken away after Drogo dies."

    So it sounds like Dany may be spending a good bit of time on the Drothaki sea in the next book.

    With all the Dany talk that she must "go backwards before she goes forward" she may end up retracing all of her steps on the way to Westeros. Drothaki sea, Pentos, and then you gotta think she first comes back to Westeros on Dragonstone
     
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  16. colonel_forbin

    colonel_forbin Well-Known Member
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    can we pick up the fucking discussion in here?
     
  17. dcon79

    dcon79 Nailed it
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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Beware the Ides of March, Jon. That's all I could think of when reading his stabbing.

    Lots of good stuff in here, I'll try to offer up some stuff (though I doubt it will be anything new), and I'll probably be reading all I can on the westeros site.
     
  18. New user

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Just finished yesterday. I'm kind of surprised by some of the responses from people that didn't seem to like the book. GRRM obviously has a ton of loose ends/storylines that need finished in the final 2 books but I'm confident that in 2000 pages he can figure it out. Like has already been mentioned, he seems to already know how he will end the series, so it's hard for me to think that he would write the storylines of the 5th book if they weren't necessary.
     
  19. NYGator

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    I think he can finish it as well. That said, I also think that the way that some of the character story arcs gets finished may feel abbreviated and unsatisfactory to some.
     
  20. Keef

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    I'm fairly interested to see how he ties Arya's story arc in with everything else. She seems to be the only one who's current story isn't really effecting or affected by the other parts of the story.
     
  21. New user

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Agreed...if he wasn't so fucking lazy I'd be hoping that he'd extend the series to 9 or 10 books b/c there are so many characters whose arcs seem to only be like halfway complete.
     
  22. NYGator

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    It's GRRM. He can always just kill them off and say, Fuck you, that's their story.
     
  23. dcon79

    dcon79 Nailed it
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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Not sure anyone on here has talked about it but on westeros there is a theory that Borroq warged into the brothers and killed Jon on Tormund's orders. That would explain Mel warning Jon to be weary of the friends that smile at him (Tormund) because Marsh and the others never really did.

    Also, who do you guys think the hooded guy was Theon sees in the godswood? Just some dude, or do you think he's more than that?
     
  24. NYGator

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    I like that theory and think it makes a lot of sense. I have to pull it up, but there was also some strange descriptions of Marsh and the others reactions, which were there for a reason and did not make much sense until I just read your theory.

    I don't remember the Theon passage. I need to read it again.
     
  25. dcon79

    dcon79 Nailed it
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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Wish I could take credit for it but I can't.

    And I think Theon saw that man right before mance's spear wives showed up to take him to mance.
     
  26. NYGator

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Ok. Now I know who you are talking about. I thought you meant after he jumped. You are right though. That is a huge mystery. Definitely someone important. Maybe Jojen's dad or a Manderly ally.
     
  27. Byrnes6D1

    Byrnes6D1 Well-Known Member

    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Arya was intended to die in the first book, but GRRM's wife liked her so much, he continued to write her. That was from an interview years ago.
     
  28. NYGator

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Never saw that but I'm guessing it had something to do with the Joffrey sword play incident.
     
  29. Keef

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Glad he kept her in...might be my favorite character
     
  30. dcon79

    dcon79 Nailed it
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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Actually just finished it, had a few povs left. Hard to think of the spider as a badass but he just might be. I cracked up a few times during the epilogue. Wonder what he ultimate game is, though. If Aegon isn't really who he claims, then why would varys want to put him on the throne? Unless he doesn't know it isn't aegon, but I can't imagine he wouldn't know.

    Just rambling
     
  31. NYGator

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Maybe it is someone related to his revenge for being made a Eunuch.
     
  32. Clown

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    Such a parallel between Jon and Dany in regards to forgetting/denying who they are in respect to their creatures. They both chain their beasts away while they get caught up in their administrative duties, and basically have to be reborn and rediscover who they are.
     
  33. The Great Pumpkin

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Grunching a bit...

    Has it been the possibility been discussed of a skinchanger using the body's of the Nights Watch members to kill Jon? It seems pretty likely upon re-reading the chapter.

    To me, it looks like someone was using Wick as a vessel until he was incapacitated by Jon. If, at this point, the skinchanger switches to Bowen Marsh then Wick's reaction makes a ton of sense.
     
  34. Clown

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    No. I just think it was a desperation move. They would have been seized or killed in Mereen, or they could try and make it back to Dorne and die at sea or return home failures.
     
  35. The Nightman

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    9 theories found on a forum

    1. Julius Ceasar Jon -- dead is dead.
    2. Jesus Christ Jon -- As the Azor Ahai Jon somehow resurrects himself. The best scenario I saw is that they attempt to burn his body but he rises from the ashes.
    3. UnJon -- Mel does some blood magic to bring Jon back like Catelyn and Dundarrion.
    4. Sherlock Holmes Jon -- Jon fakes his own death in order to leave the wall.
    5. J.R. Ewing Jon -- the antecedent is Arya -- Jon isn't dead at all and survives his cuts. The narration just makes us think he's dead.
    6. Cold Hands Jon -- there are good wights, too, after all.
    7. Other Jon -- and then again, there are bad wights. This would be the graying of Jon Snow's character if he goes over to the dark side.
    8. Alter-Jon -- like the Mace/Rattleshirt switcheroo, someone else has been glamored to look like Jon. That the "death" occurs in a Jon POV makes this difficult, of course, but George can find a way.
    9. Targ Warg Jon -- this seems awfully likely given the Varymyr chapter and what we learn about Wargs throughout the book. But this opens up additional possibilities:

    9a. Ghost Jon -- Jon lives out the next several books in Ghost.
    9b. Ice Jon -- He goes to Ghost but comes back into his own body which is preserved in a frozen state under the Wall.
    9c. Wun Wun Jon -- From Ghost to a nice new strong body with a simple mind.
    9d. Stanis Jon -- From Ghost to Stannis -- if Stanis is dead, he won't be needing his body. Plus this would allow Jon to prosecute his war against the Lannisters, taking up from his brother Rob.
    9e. Dragon Jon -- Jon goes to Ghost and then into one of Dany's dragons (or maybe another dragon under the Wall or under Winterfell). Makes him literally the third head of the dragon.
     
  36. Byrnes6D1

    Byrnes6D1 Well-Known Member

    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    I personally like 9B
     
  37. The Great Pumpkin

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Yea, 9b for me as well. If that is the case, I think Mel is definitely involved in getting Jon's physical body ready for him to be reborn.

    Knowing GRRM, 1 should probably be the moneyline favorite.
     
  38. The Nightman

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    i like the idea of being reraised as azor ahai but i dont think it happens. he already did that with cat it kind of seems recycled if he does it with jon too
     
  39. NYGator

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    I agree. That said, this entire Azor Ahai situation reminds me too much entirely of Wheel of Time.
     
  40. Irush

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead Jon is not dead.
     
  41. The Nightman

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    seriously if hes for real dead

    i will go on a rampage the likes of which this world has never seen before.
     
  42. Irush

    Irush Well-Known Member
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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    i'll be right there with you
     
  43. fsutony

    fsutony Well-Known Member
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    finally finished book 4 and started book 5
     
  44. Cza

    Cza Buns Glazing
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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Welp, just got done. Mereen storyline pretty much sucks and took up a whole lot of that book, but fascinated to see what he does with it. There are no similarities at all, but I have the exact same feeling I did when I got done reading 'Song of Susannah' in the DT series. Just kind of a ok, let's not take another 6 years to get the next one out.

    Jon chapter made me go outside and back-to-back two cigs and sit there all grumpy. I'm serious, when I get the next book andif he's for real dead, I will hack that shit up like Joffrey.
     
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  45. NYGator

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    I don't remember one book from the other with DT, but i was lucky enough to start reading them when all was completed.
     
  46. Cza

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    6 year break between books 3 and 4, 7 year break between books 4 and 5. Then he got in that car accident which made him quit fucking around and then got books 6 and 7 out in under a year.

    I went through the first 3 in late middle school so like 93 maybe. Then had to wait 4 years, then wait 7 years. Fucking sucked.

    On the plus side, I think 'Wizard and Glass' was probably his best work ever.
     
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  47. London Humphreys

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    Just finished...

    Way too much filler in this book, especially in the Mereen POV's.

    Agree on the GRRM rule, and plan to see Jon again. Why is he so goddamn stubborn? How many times was Melisandre right on with her predictions? Her interpretation may have been a little off, but the vision was true. Listen to her goddamnit, and Ghost? Oh he is freaking out and part of you, but noooooo, let's just go do some controversial shit anyway. Really stupid on his part.

    Dany/Mereen story drove me crazy for 1000 pages. The name of the book is "A Dance with Dragons" and we don't see anything cool with dragons until appr. 700 pages in, and then nothing until 900 pages. Even the moments we get the dragons are out of control and wild. They are not helping anything. Would have been far simpler for Dany to have figured out how to control the dragons (maybe Victarion shows up with the horn earlier, breaks the Quartheen blockade and Dany has to risk her life to blow the horn. Once she does, she realizes she is immortal, takes control of the dragons, and heads to Westeros to fuck up the Lannisters as the book ends. Still plenty of story to fill two more books.

    Confused as to what Bran's power actually is. He can see what goes on through the trees and the ravens, but is powerless to help? I was really hoping he was the ghost of winterfell using the wind and animals to fuck up the Boltons.

    Where is this place where men eat other men that Davos is sailing to rescue Rickon? Skagos? How the hell did Rickon get there? Really sucks the last we heard of this storyline was about half way through the book, and then nothing.

    Too many Tyrion POV's to not have much action from him. Love Tyrion and was excited about him teaming up with Dany to talk some since into her. Never...fucking...happened in 1000 pages. Gay.
     
  48. The Great Pumpkin

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    My favorite chapters in this book were Theon and Davos. I thought the Reek chapters were especially well written. Just brutal, brutal stuff. Davos has probably turned into my favorite character in the series.

    It has to be Skagos where Osha took Rickon. Maybe it has some connection to the wildings so she knew she could take him there safely? Also, when Jon is dreaming through Ghost he sees Shaggydog fighting a giant goat with one horn. We know from previous books that Skagos is rumored to have unicorns so it seems pretty conclusive. There is a good thread on the Westeros board that I will try to link later talking about all this stuff.
     
  49. am16401

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    yeap pretty sure he said exactly that aswell. I don't think he is soft as LC and he has called the brothers out on a lot of bullshit they've been spewing. Like the true meaning of the oat wasn't to protect the wall against other men but to protect men from the true enemy. Or how a lot of the black brothers have fucked up past so to try and look at what some wildlings did in their past while dismissing the murderers and rapist already in the watch was crap. I agree with the idea that GRRM did what he did as an out for the oat and fufills the AA propechy.
     
  50. London Humphreys

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    Re: Stay out of thread unless done with book 5-

    Thoughts on Barristan's story about Ashara committing a suicide over a still birth? Who was the father?

    Also, just occurred to me that perhaps the baby was born, and that is who young griff is. Ashara had similar eyes as Targuaryens and young griff's aren't as purple, so this could explain it. Maybe she committed suicide because Varys stole her baby, and she was powerless to stop it or maybe Varys lied to her and told her the child died.

    If young griff is the false dragon, this might be an explanation that ties it together.