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Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by Barves2125, May 28, 2015.
They kicked down the door of a mentally ill person and killed him.
A guy I grew up with was shot and killed by an officer over the weekend. All of the details aren't out and there's a chance it might be justified, but we will never know because his body cam was turned off. How the fuck does this keep happening?
If it were me, I would want video of every confrontation and the fact that these things conveniently get turned off is why people don't trust police.
Not having a camera or microphone turned on at a time it is supposed to is generally against policy and will get them written up. Turning off a camera, that is already on, is considered interrupting service and manipulating evidence which could get them fired.
that becomes a tough situation. If you are called to a home where a mentally unstable person has called for help, then says it was an accident, then refuses to answer the door for a wellness check, that's a problem. If the cops just leave, and that guy kills himself, then the cops are assholes, and maybe responsible, because they did not help a mentally ill person in obvious distress. But if they stay and demand to see the guy, they are escalating the situation and making it more violent and distressful.
Kicking the door down does seem like the wrong approach. The idea, I assume, was that they could kick the door down, taze the guy, and subdue him safely, and if that didn't work, they could use non-lethal bean bags. When both of those failed they were left with an angry mentally ill man with a knife who had already threatened to kill them in close proximity to officers.
I'm curious, how would that situation be handled that would be reasonable, and be in the best interest of the mentally ill person? Obviously it's not kicking his door down and killing him, but what's the right approach? You are a cop, called to this guys residence. He set off his medical alert, but now says it was an accident. You've been informed that he's mentally unstable. What do you do now?
Was it off or did he not have one? It seems pretty common that when people or departments say there is no body cam footage, reporting media turns that into it was off
If he seems stable and says it was an accident, then leave.
If he seems unstable and says it was an accident, get a warrant unless you have probable cause to believe he committed a crime.
If you don’t have probable cause to believe he committed a crime, a police officer should call somebody with experience dealing with mental illness or a family member of the citizen.
I think mental health wellness checks don't need to have warrants. If you believe he is a harm to himself or others, the police have an obligation to ensure everyone's safety.
painfully ironic that they killed the guy they were checking on the wellness of, yes, totally agree. But I don't think you need probable cause or a warrant. in fact I think policies are in place to not need either of those, for the good of the person who may be in danger. Sitting there waiting for a warrant while a guy kills himself or harms someone else is less than ideal.
In this case accidentally pushing the medical alert device, then refusing to open the door could be an indication that the guy is not totally stable. If it were just some old lady, it's not that big a deal, but if the old lady has mental issues, that takes it to another level of...suspicion, I guess is the word. No?
oh. ok. What about the threatening to kill everyone thing?
I kind of agree with you, but again, if you are the cops, and you show up, the guy says he's fine, and you leave, and then that guy hangs himself, don't you think you, as the cop who responded, are going to take a good amount of heat for that? Isn't the family going to be on the news saying - an officer was there and he just left, he knew my son was mentally unstable, he knew he called for help, and the officer knocked on the door and said :"is everything ok?", then just left and now my baby is gone! ?
If the cop comes to the door, the guy says it’s a false alarm and assures him that he’s ok, then the cop is totally fine.
If the cop notices something odd, he should contact a family member or mental health professional and then leave once the situation is resolved.
If those people show up and the situation does not resolve, then and only then should the officer escalate the response.
I do find it amusing that dblplay1212 liked this post when this is pretty much exactly what happened in the Kenneth Chamberlain situation.
The guy threatened to kill anyone who came through the door.
Cops are not equipped to deal with a mentally unstable person. If the person is not a clear threat to themselves or the officers, they should wait on a family member of someone qualified to deal with a mentally unstable person to show up and help de-escalate the situation. Kicking the door down and shooting the person is not an acceptable way to deal with a mentally unstable person in their own home. In this case, they got tired of waiting on him to comply with their demands and rushed into the home, didn't like how the mentally unstable person reacted to them invading his home, and they killed him for it. None of that is ok.
That does sound good. I'm not totally opposed to that. I just think it's not that simple, and cops will undoubtedly walk away from someone who ends up killing themselves in that situation, which, again, is less than ideal. And they did contact a family member, who said the individual had mental health issues. (Mr. Chamberlain’s sister informed Officer Carelli that Mr. Chamberlain had a “mental problem”)
"Well if we leave, he may kill himself. Nope, can't have that. Let's kick his door down. If the mentally ill person on the other side doesn't comply, we'll just kill him ourselves."
Yep, great fucking plan.
being honest, the plan was to get the mentally ill person to open the door. When that failed, the plan became to kick the door down and hopefully not be in a confrontation with him, but if they were a) use the tazer, b) use the bean bags and if all else fails c) use guns.
That's not a great plan, but it's not exactly as you are portraying it either.
That’s because he’s not looking for a genuine discussion.
There are tons of examples that I've seen just randomly watching the show COPS over the years of police using force to subdue someone who was going to harm themselves. Tackling them, tazing them, etc. Often in that situation using force to prevent something worse from happening is the best of the many bad options.
Then the cops should request hep from somebody who has been trained to deal with people with “mental problems.”
A cop walking away from a dude who kills himself is less than idea. It’s less than less than ideal for a cop to kill a guy who was otherwise totally fine.
agree, but they don't know he's "otherwise totally fine" unless they check on him. For better or worse, wellness checks is a job that's been assigned to cops.
So you show up, the guy tells you he's fine and to go away, you are informed that he has "mental problems". You say you just need him to open the door so you can see that he's ok, and he refuses, and says he has a weapon and will kill anyone who comes through the door. Now you chill and wait for someone trained to deal with people with mental problems to show up?
But it doesn’t even need to get to that point. When you show up and the dude says he’s fine and it was an accidental medical alert, he should just leave.
It’s really that easy.
Yes. That's exactly what you do. If it were a bomb, they'd wait for a bomb specialist.
again, I think you are making it simpler than it is, but we are going in circles now. There is a reason they need to do a wellness check when people call for help, then say it was an accident or change their minds.
unless the bomb was going to go off before the specialist could arrive.
And this wasn't a "Hey this guy is wondering around the yard naked and yelling at the clouds, can you come check on him?" call. This was someone calling themselves. When they say it's a mistake, the should leave. They shouldn't demand to enter his home.
But he wasn’t ok.
Are you honestly ok with police officers ignoring someone in distress?
He wasn't in distress. He accidentally hit the button and told everyone that.
It’s super simple to not kill people in their homes when they tell you they’re fine beforehand.
ugh.... again, it wasn't handled well in this situation. Your solution also sucks and leads to mentally ill people dying. Do I have to explain why cops and mental health professionals can't simply take the word of mentally ill people when they say they are fine???
That isn’t what happened. Life Aid received an alert from Chamberlain. Life Aid then attempted to contact him and he didn’t respond to them. Life Aid then notified the police to send an ambulance.
The police then received the alert from dispatch along with the notification there had been previously incidents at the address involving an emotionally disturbed individual.
Are you honestly trying to argue that the police should take the word of a man that has a documented history of emotional distress and refuses to open the door to talk to the EMTs?
I get it that you want to hold the police responsible for his death but there is no way you can honestly believe Mr. Chamberlain didn’t need help from someone at that moment.
If your daughter accidentally calls 911 and cops show up, and you tell them it was just an accident, and they ask you to open the door because it's policy to make sure everyone is ok, even if it was just an accident, what do you do?
part 2: if you refuse to open the door after calling 911 and claiming it was an accident when cops show up, how does that look?
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. They don't need to be kicking in the door of a mentally unstable man to check on him. That's fucking insane. He didn't need help. He accidentally hit the alert and said he was fine. Life Alert even tried to cancel the alert. The police refused their request. Instead they felt they needed to kick his fucking door down to check on him. He was fine when they got there. He was dead when they left.
At approximately 5:25 a.m., Life Aid received a second call from Mr. Chamberlain, who stated, “I have the White Plains Police Department banging on my door and I did not call them, and I am not sick.” Life Aid attempted to cancel the dispatch, but the WPPD dispatcher informed Life Aid that the police officers needed to enter the apartment to make sure Mr. Chamberlain was not in distress.
If we agree that the cop fucked up in this situation, why are you continuing to push back when I point out exactly where the cop fucked up? If you agree the cop fucked up, what do you think he did wrong?
Yes, some mentally ill people are probably going to kill themselves. That sucks. We should definitely raise taxes and use some of that money to fund a legitimate mental health apparatus in our communities to have trained people available to help with situations like this.
Sounds like cops did the right thing by staying on site even tho he said he was fine. My issue is them forcing their way in, without being accompanied by a professional or a family member.
They aren't searching my home bc my daughter accidentally called 911.
Yea that's where I am. I get that they are concerned and want to make sure he's ok but kicking down his door bc they don't have the skill or patience to handle it otherwise is insane. Using force on a mentally unstable person just doesn't work.
than and/or just check on them instead of believing them when they call for help then say they are fine when help arrives?
I don;t like how simple you are making it. Hey, he said he was fine, that's that! It's not that simple, and that's not a good solution. But, like I said, there are not any good solutions. I don't think kicking his door in was a great solution. Had this guy been intent on hurting himself, that may have been the best solution to get him immediate help. If not, it was a terrible solution.
correct. They are asking you to open your door, not to search your home.
What you’re saying ≠ what you actually believe.
You’re just being intentionally obtuse at the moment.
So what do you think the cop should’ve done in this situation?
I'd meet them at the door with my daughter and say we're fine and sorry for the mistake. But I'm not mentally unstable.
fyi They wanted to enter his home.
Life Aid attempted to cancel the dispatch, but the WPPD dispatcher informed Life Aid that the police officers needed to enter the apartment to make sure Mr. Chamberlain was not in distress.
It was not turned on from the news reports.
Not a cop bit fuuuuck
it's hard to say. kicking in the door seems like a bad option. As long as the guy is communicating and is not harming himself, don't escalate it they way they seemed to. But what'[s their situation, how long do they wait for a mental health professional or family member to show up? Was there anyone even available that could come help? But even that's a tough call, and that can change quickly, waiting is not always a good idea.
Hindsight tells us that in this situation, what they did was wrong. But in the next case like this kicking the door in might save a life. It's not possible to establish a blanket protocol that's followed every single time the exact same way, I don't think.
I’m asking you. You said the cop did the wrong thing. What should he have done instead?
and I'm telling you I don't know. We are reading a brief overview of what happened. Being there in that scenario might feel a lot different than sitting in my office reading it. I think whatever needs to be don to prevent someone from hurting themselves of others should be done. it should be treated like an emergency until it can be verified that it's not. And taking the word of the person who called for help, then said they were ok and refused to open the door would not constitute verification, in my opinion.
If you don't have a better solution, how can you be sure that my suggestion isn't the best?
It also sounds like you're not sure the cop did anything wrong.
This is where the discussion becomes legitimately sad.
A kid is being abused by her father. She tries to call 911 but the father cuts her off before she can talk to the dispatch.
The police show up to investigate what’s going on and dbl is over here arguing the police shouldn’t be able to conduct a welfare check on the residents of the house.
I can speak to them at my door with my daughter without them coming into my home.