ha ha as the dog is chomping on her arm: you're fine, you're fine. hey, just wrong place at the wrong time. No big deal, we'll get you a medic to take a look.
Yet if a civilian's dog lunges at a cop, the cop shoots him and then makes the owner saw off the dog's head.
Warren v. DOC is not about officer safety, it is about police services to the public at large not to an individual. "The duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists". The correct case for use of force is Graham v. Conner. "All claims that law enforcement officers have used excessive force – deadly or not – in the course of an arrest, investigatory stop, or other seizure of a free citizen should be analyzed under the Fourth Amendment and its objective reasonableness standard". “The reasonableness of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight.” The objective test requires the court to envision a reasonable officer and ask this question: Based on the totality of the facts and circumstances, could such an officer believe that the force was reasonable?"
For the call there are multiple potential threats, the male, female, and the unknown down the hallway. You address one threat at a time if possible. Can't see behind the officers, if there is cover where the officers are it is better to have the people come to the officers than expose themselves in the hallway. And if someone emerges from the hotel room with a weapon, cover and distance is where the officers should be.
There is no standard for this. Unfortunately there is not a lot of training put into this part of an officers job other than the basic academy. When you get several officers together it can get confusing if more than one officer provides commands. It can sound like a t-ball game where all the parents and coach are yelling different things at the kid about where to throw the ball. I don't know if crawling is safer than walking. I probably would have had them walk backward to me one at a time with their hands up. Seems like crawling toward me is too complicated for the person and there's potential for the person to pull a weapon without being seen until the weapon is pointed toward me.
I was trying to find some stats and read that there were a record 28 canines killed in the line of duty in 2015 (most recent year I could find) and a second stat that claimed that cops kill 25 (civilian) dogs PER DAY in the US. The logic that a civilian dog is property and can be shot and killed if it barks and makes the cop uncomfortable vs. a police dog is an officer and other humans can be killed to protect a police dog baffles me.
I'd buy that if they didn't go stand in front of the door for 2 minutes messing with the key card right after shooting the guy. They didn't seem to be that concerned about a threat in the room.
They were not haphazardly standing in front of the door like they were delivering pizza. One officer reached across the door multiple times to try and use the key card to open the door. The other officer, guy with the camera, was as far right of the center of the door as the hallway would allow while pointing his firearm at the door. When the camera turns left into the hallway a few other officers can be seen with firearms directed at the door. Nope didn't seem concerned a threat was there at all.
The guy with the camera literally stood right in front of the door the entire time. If someone let loose from inside, he was getting hit.
Cop shoots deaf man for not following commands. Fuck it. http://5newsonline.com/2017/12/08/oklahoma-prosecutor-declines-to-charge-cop-in-deaf-mans-killing/
Should have asked him more nicely, maybe asked him to scoot instead of crawl. But seriously, trying to do that shit on your knees is like a bad crossfit workout
To me "literally in the door way" would is this . He was at the door. In that situation there is not best place to be. The front site of the gun is about where the center of his face would be. The front site is lined up with the door handle. He can't get over anymore to the right for the wall. He can't move over behind the guy with the door key because it would put the door key guy between the officers gun and the door. Better tactical situation would have been for them to swap sides. Door key guy would not have been in the awkward positions to try to use the key and the guy with the camera would be able to see in the room as soon as the door cracks.
Regarding the tactics of the cops in the video. Putting them on the ground and having them crawl to you with their hands over their head is SOP, however some people, specifically old or fat people cant crawl without putting their hands on the ground, so you allow it to happen. 1. You don’t go to them and put yourself in a crossfire (police in front of and behind him) in case he goes for a gun and you have to shoot. 2. You don’t put yourself in front of a door where a reportedly armed gunman was located. 3. You don’t let his hands disappear, hands are the only thing that can hurt you. Putting his hands behind his back really set them off, then when he did it with his right hand the 2nd the cop obviously thought it was a threat. 4. You have to give forceful commands a strong command presence and authoritative voice controls the room. Other notes: 1. This officer didn’t have to shoot this guy, as you can tell, he is the only one that fired, I think that’s bc he had a poor angle and couldn’t see where that hand was going. 2. Officer is probably a dick, you can tell by the way he treats his teammates, speaks to the suspects, and that stupid fucking phrase on his rifle. 3. Obviously the defense was able to present totality of circumstances to prove why the shooting was justified, but it wasn’t right and that guy has to live with it. 4. Guy shouldn’t be a cop.
Finally found out how to get punished if you're a cop At least she didnt get a bullet in her head like that other cop that was planning to testify against other cops
The judicial system has no affect on my opinion. OJ should have gone to jail for killing Nicole. This cop should be in jail for murdering that unarmed civilian. Juries get it wrong sometimes. But I'm not surprised in the least that you can't admit your boy in blue should go to jail. That's par for the course for you.
Lol. I’m not going to pretend to know every fact about that case or any case, only what I know about what occurred in that video. That’s why I talked about his tactics and how he interacted with his teammates and suspects.
You don't need to know every fact about the case. The video is enough. You just refuse to hold your fellow officers accountable so you'll deflect as if there's something unknown that could make what we saw less egregious. You'll never say your fellow officers should go to jail for their actions. You'll always find a reason to give them a pass.
Help me understand how to crawl without putting your hands on the ground. Maybe part of the confusion here is that cops have a different definition of "crawl" than the rest of the world? You can crawl with your hands over your head??? I'd like to see that.
that ain't crawling, yo. Standing on your knees with your hands above your head and "walking" on your knees. Literally no one woudl call that crawling. Also, the guy was ordered to lay with his face down to the ground when the woman did that. The guy never saw the woman "crawl' like that. if he had, MAYBE he would have imitated what she did. But ask 100 people to crawl and 0 of them are going to do what you are describing. Which is fine, if you want someone to do that, tell them to do that. But don't call it crawling, then say if you fuck up one more time we are going to shoot you. crawl to me! get your hands in the air!! Now Crawl! (what???)
Jesus, dude. All I’m saying is having the guy crawl with his hands over his head, or walk on his knees with his hands over his head is normal.
right, I understand that part, but in the context of the video, telling him, or anyone, to "crawl with your hands over your head" is a retarded command. It makes no sense to most people. That last part (crawl to me! get your hands in the air!! Now Crawl!) was from the video, right? the guy was confuse by that command. I think it's reasonable to be confused by that command.
Yeah that didn’t make any sense to me either. Maybe “scoot on your knees with your hands over your head” would be better but when I think or hear crawl I’m thinking on all fours.
He was not shot for any aspect of miscommunication with Crawling or Walking on his knees. They did not even correct him for actually crawling. But when he turned 90 degrees and reached for the small of his back, they have no way to assume that he does not have a gun, especially since they were responding to a call about a rifle being waved around out the window of his room. If he had a rifle, the safe assumption would be that he does have a handgun, not that he doesn't. Especially when he suspiciously reaches the small of his back, not once but twice. Also, the guy giving the commands was not the same guy as the shooter. The guy giving the commands stated that he would have shot also, but the Officer that shot was between him and the target. You won't watch it, but this has a pretty good analysis, along with a pause at the split second when the officer shoots.
How about we don't shoot guys crawling on the floor who are sobbing and clearly confused? None of us give a flying fuck about what the officer may think he's doing or when an officer is allowed to shoot by policy. Any god damn human being should see this as a man being unjustly killed.
I must just be a normal human being then, not a god damned one, because this guy for whatever reason, stopped crawling, and reached back behind his back explicitly against his instructions. Was possibly just pulling up his pants, or he was possibly reaching for a gun.
Again, most of us are well beyond the point of trying to "guess" at what these guys are doing that are being blown away by cops. We're not talking about a man who is in complete control of his faculties, we're talking about a man who is scared shitless and is being deliberately confused by several officers. This shouldn't warrant death, fucking have one of the five guys have a taser or some other non-leathal weapon on him if he acts weird.
this is not bad, but it gives all benefit to the cops and none to the civilians. I'll break down his breakdown. The guy makes the point that you can't believe what the people are telling you. If they say there is no one in the room, you don't believe them, because you might die if you believe that and there really are people in the room. my question: why ask questions if you are not going to believe the answers? What's the point of that? Cops ask: are both of you drunk? Answer: no. ok. Were both of them drunk? or was just one of them drunk? That guy can be sloppy drunk and the chick is sober, and the answer to the question "are both of you drunk" is no. It's a poorly worded question. Also, see above. They should not believe him, and assume the worst, just like when they ask if there are more people in the room. We will ask if hes drunk, but when he says no we won't believe him and assume he is drunk. Right? hmmmm No comment on Rich not knowing his ass from a hole in the ground? ok. Pull Rich, this way! "listen to my instructions and do not make a mistake" Nice. No pressure, you are just not allowed to do anything wrong, at all, or we will kill you, cool? No comment on that? How much pressure that puts on someone? And how normal (non-police, non-military, no training, etc.) people react when they are under that kind of stress? Literally life or death stress, if you do ANYTHING wrong, we are killing you. ok... When the guy pushes himself up and uncrosses his legs in the process, and the cops yell at him. It's clear he's now confused and very flustered. He does what his instinct tell him to do, put his hands behind his back, to show he's not a threat. Of course, to the cops it looks like he's reaching for the small of his back, but this guy is not considering the cop's perspective (just like, apparently, the cops are not considering his). He's now panicking. It's very obvious. He starts crying, he pleads with them not to kill him. The cops need to recognize that. "if you do that again we are shooting you!" No, please do not shoot me, I'm just trying to do what you say DON'T TALK, LISTEN! so you are not going to listen to the issues he's having with your commands? Didn't you previously ask him if he has any issues obeying your commands? Now that he's voicing those issues, the response is to shut up? Strange. Then we see the confusion over - if you put your hands down we are shooting you, now crawl towards me! CRAWL TOWARDS ME! The guy even makes the "fuck I don't know what to do here" motion with his hands before putting them on the ground, as he was instructed NOT to do, and crawling. So here is where the cops need to stop him and force him to do what they want. If they don't want him to crawl, tell him to stop, push himself back up to his knees, and "crawl" on his knees with his hands straight up. Why woudl they allow him to keep crawling on hands and knees if that's not what they want him to do?? Oh, and listen to him explain how they typically verify the guy is not carrying a gun in his waistband. That way they can be much more sure that he does not have a gun there to shoot them with. I like: I'm not armchair quarterbacking....but let me explain everything these cops did wrong, while defending everything they did. ehhhhh "He's been cooperating, reasonably, this whole time." Really?? How many times did they tell him not to do something again or they would shoot him? a) uncrossed his legs b) reached into the small of his back c) was told not to put his hands on the ground. 3 times in what, 20 seconds, he misunderstood or did not follow instructions. reasonably cooperative the whole time? Strange. I basically agree that the exact moment that the guy reaches back, and the cop shoots him, that specific moment is not a terrible shot. The entire fiasco that led up to that situation is what put that guys life in danger. Incompetent police work, poor clarity of instructions, misreading obvious signals that the guy was giving the cops, ALL contributed to his death. I don't know the legal term for that, but they caused his death. manslaughter? By the way, it just occurred to me, again with this "crawling" thing. He's told to cross his legs and not uncross them. Then get on his knees. Hands up, crawl towards them. So, with your hands up, on your knees, with your legs crossed behind you, you are supposed to scoot on your knees? I thought it was a silly command before, but doing that with your legs crossed? it's absurd. it's a terrible command that I don't even think is possible to physically do.
It scares the shit out of me when actual police officers come in here and fail to see the issues that damn near everyone else sees so clearly. Not all of TMB's law enforcement officers do that but the few that do are honestly frightening.
Perhaps if the officer allowed him to speak without threatening to shoot him he could’ve communicated with the officers that his pants were falling, if that’s the case.
doesn’t happen often in here IMO. They understand the larger societal issue. They just give their explanation on how it is viewed by police. I’m only getting defensive because I absolutely love the insight and dialogue we get going from both sides and I don’t want to close them out.