if you change the dynamic around housing where its just printing money and excluding people from the historical levers of social mobility the landlord issue becomes far less important
Home ownership also keeps labor tied to an area. Thankfully the pandemic has slightly loosened the ties of work to location. But it’s still a peoblem for many reasons.
So you're cool with a ton of quads owned by investors where everyone just rents and the landlord becomes wealthy off those people. I don't like that at all. I'd prefer there be policies in place that creates multi-family housing where they are sold individually.
as supply increases the just printing money aspect for landlords goes down i think some of this disconnect is this war over housing has been going on for a century and basically the last 18 months is the first time the YIMBY's have ever, EVER made progress. so for people just paying attention it seems very easy to regulate these systems when infact its literally the most difficult political lift across the country. just build is the easiest and most robust solution, once we can start slowing down or hopefully decrease housing costs in many of these areas the more micro solutions can be rolled out. the problem with the micro solutions you're pointing to is we've seen them for decades be wildly counter productive and just wielded as extra barriers to actually increasing supply. they also are easier to defeat politically or kneecap to near uselessness. build.build.build. don't care who else gets to benefit. just build.
on a message board where the demographics skew highly educated and in the homeowner class (or want to be here) I understand arguing that housing prices should go down when they view that house as an investment vehicle is not going to be real popular as that material threat produces anxiety thats why we have to change the thinking in line with the deregulation, or the NIMBY revolt will be HARSH
Like I said earlier, I realize supply is the biggest issue. But I think we can build while also not creating a situation where home ownership is more unattainable than it already is.
I'm in favor of housing prices going down. I'm not in favor or home ownership being more unattainable bc everything being built is sold in bulk for landlords to get rich renting. Build duplex, quads, 100 unit condos, etc. Build all of that. But sell them individually, not to one investor to rent.
relieving supply pressures will do this, change the financial incentive for landlords and PE firms, make them less robust investment vehicles so they get the fuck out of the space. as the space weakens most of these rentals will get sold. but again, the home ownership dream as wealth builder is dumb, get rid of it
make the landlord dynamic bad! how do we do that? expand supply dramatically so price pressure makes their profits miniscule and often times net positive to the renter!
Home ownership being a wealth builder needs to be slowed down but renting is never going to be better than owning.
You have this very simplistic view of "just build!!!" without looking at everything past it and it's pretty surprising, honestly.
My million in equity looks great on paper but isn't particularly useful unless I want to sell and move to Idaho, it merely serves as a reminder that my kids can't afford to buy or rent in this area
This very literally isn't true even now in many parts of the country Policies need to be simple, as you add barriers and nonsense you continue adding administrative burden that prevent your goal from being met. Especially on this issue.
Disagree. I think you can build without making a much larger renter class. Solving one issue by making another isn't good. Good talk, off to dad duty.
This is so true. I wasn't super politically involved back during the Occupy days. But I remember it being wildly unpopular and every time I'd look deeper into it, I couldn't comprehend why the protestors were being painted as the bad guys.
It's amazing how the media treated the student loan debt issue at this time. Like damn near a unanimous "what about personal responsibility" message.
long read at DK Black family hangs photos of white neighbors and appraisal comes back nearly $100,000 higher clifs: Cinnci couple is told by parent why were you home and why did you leave up your pcitures?
Unlikely, unless you’re a very savvy investor. Investing in the market requires patience. Remember seeing a stat that basically showed over the last 30 years, investing in the S&P would result in great returns, but if an investor missed the ten best days over that period they’d break even or lose. If you can predict when those ten days happen, great. If not, better to purchase a home over the same 30 years and have a roof over your head.
home ownership as the key to prosperity has been insanely destructive to our country. it needs to go away.[/QUOTE] Agree because of things like redlining but if everyone is given equal access to the ability to buy a home, do you still feel that way?
Agree because of things like redlining but if everyone is given equal access to the ability to buy a home, do you still feel that way?[/QUOTE] Yes it creates perverse incentives to wield political power to restrict supply and increase home values always at the expense of others.
Yes it creates perverse incentives to wield political power to restrict supply and increase home values always at the expense of others.[/QUOTE] Look forward to discussing this over a beer in December. But it’s Saturday and I’ve given most of my brain cells the day off to watch some foosball.
That’s a very simplistic way of looking at renting vs owning. You’re not lighting money on fire; you’re paying for shelter. Renting vs owning, if you can afford to buy, is more of a lifestyle choice than an investment decision.
I get why some people rent. But after 10 years, one person has equity, even taking out home value increases. You can trade that for lifestyle and that's fine, but it doesn't change the numbers.
in many markets renting is cheaper for same quality of life before even getting into flexibility etc if you invest that difference you often have a higher chance of coming out ahead of where you'd be than with a mortgage and all the costs that come with that this isn't a novel concept
its not at all hypocritical but you're moving into dbl defensiveness I've not once said owning isn't often the more financially beneficial position, it's just not always the best, until the market I live in saw a dip over the last nearly 4 years living here we were happily renting before buying into that dip AND on a great deal. Even with all that taken into account the jury is still out if it was the financially best move! If we dramatically increase supply that calculus will start to swing more towards renting as well. I'm good with all this.
imo yes it would be a good thing and maybe the most realistic outcome. We also need to change just about everything that is associated with home ownership but that’s unlikely to happen. So the best thing is to make it affordable for people to live.
good tool https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/buy-rent-calculator.html also good recent study https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/10/realestate/renting-cheaper-than-buying.html in many of these areas that savings invested will be a much safer more robust return on investment
You're I favor of wealthy oligarchs owning all housing and the peasants having to pay them rent? Hard pass for me on that.
I think some of you are missing/forgetting Lyrtch’s point on devaluing rental properties as an investment
Renting is better in the short term, if you plan on moving every couple years. Most people don't do that, especially as they get older. I assumed we were talking about the average person that's settled down, not someone in their 20s that's changing cities every few years.
I don't think most people have the luxury or job security of having zero risk of needing to move over any reasonable time frame. Before even getting into the way people upscale their lifestyles within region. Taking that all in to account it still isn't obvious which is better!
there seems to also be an inability to understand that there isn't some inherent benefit to owning, it's just math
I don't think making more rentals and no options to buy does that. Less opportunities to buy forces more to the only option of renting. More renters is good for landlords.
i agree that AOC should be on that committee but I feel like 0% of attention is paid to that they just moved the piece to a different committee to pass
wait, with this framing is that leadership shifted it to a different committee and passed it mean they are allies to the poor?
dbl is doing his thing where he just refuses to engage with a point he doesn't like so he just keeps repeating himself over and over