City of Mirrors, by Justin Cronin (Book 3 of The Passage Trilogy)

Discussion in 'TMB Book Club' started by Truman, Jan 22, 2016.

  1. blind dog

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    shit just got real :ohshit:
     
  2. Lorne Malvo

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    To here, which is the end of Part II
    I really enjoyed the back story. By the end of it, I was legitimately sad that Liz died. Even with that being referenced at points in the first book. Especially the way she did. I thought it was interesting that he yada yada'd getting sick. I wonder if we'll learn anything more about that or if that's something that won't be expanded upon.

    All in all, I loved these chapters. Fanning is not just some monster. He was a person with a hell of a story. That said, I'm super pumped to see the endgame and I imagine we're about to see how that unfolds. Loving this book so far.
     
    #52 Lorne Malvo, May 27, 2016
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
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  3. Lorne Malvo

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    Spoilers on Part II and how it ties into the first book
    So after finishing it, I opened my Kindle, fired up The Passage, and searched "Lear". Wanted to get a background on one of those first chapters when he was just emailing his friend back home. Skimmed it and of course Fanning was brought up, as was his wife a few times.

    But I somehow totally forgot that it was him who basically marries Lacey at the end of his life.

    I guess this is a spoiled bc it involves a character predominately involved in Part II but it was awesome re reading bits and pieces of the first book with the knowledge of certain characters and their pasts.
     
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  4. blind dog

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    RIP Carter, was hoping he made it until the end :embarrassed:
     
  5. Lorne Malvo

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    Through Part III/chapter 33
    "Let it begin." So pumped. This part was probably my least favorite but it felt very table setting-y, so I get why it had to happen. Some stray thoughts:

    - I figured Alicia was going to go back and forth on whether or not she should be good but it doesn't seem like the case
    - It's not a mountain lion that people think is on the loose, right? But a viral who is doing some spying? "My eyes are everywhere, seeing all" made me think that he's been spying around the country to see what's going on and how people are. Has to be the case
    - Wtf is going to happen with Amy and Carter? Outside of them being fed, nothing on them in this part
     
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  6. Lorne Malvo

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    Through Part IV/chapter 45
    Loved loved loved the sense of dread that hung over all these chapters. Love that Zero, or at least his many, are making a move. Loved the backstory on Carter and the boat. Agree with blind dog - will we find out what happened to the baby? That was really interesting to me.

    Some other thoughts

    - It's amazing how, once again, the story is being based around characters we barely knew anything about with all of the kids of the main characters. And, as always, it works. Cronin is a beast of a writer
    - Hope Alicia makes it there in time to help with everything. Wonder what her end game is in all of this
    - I'm curious as to why we went back to Iowa. Aside from knowing the character a tad + it being a setting in the last book, I don't really see what the purpose was besides showing that the vitals are causing problems there. But that'll be happening in Texas too. Enjoyed the chapters, just didn't see their place I guess
     
    #56 Lorne Malvo, May 27, 2016
    Last edited: May 28, 2016
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  7. Lorne Malvo

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    Through Part VII/chapter 55
    Holy shit at how much suddenly started happening in such a short amount of time. So much of Part VI read like a straight up horror novel as the time kept on ticking to darkness of night. When Caleb was outside, thinking about the box, and the trees were moving? Oh man. RIP Dorthy, we hardly knew ya. Are we to assume she left the house on her own? Or did her husband save her and we should be worried about him too? Either way, damn.

    Also, Kate getting done in that way was a huge kick in the nuts. But damn if the way it happened wasn't really well done. I have to imagine this won't be the first of characters we really know and like to meet their end.

    Few other things:

    - Hell yeah, time for Amy to do her thing again. Kind of surprised Carter won't have an immediate part to play in this
    - Where in the hell is Alicia? I figured she would get there in time to warn everyone of what was to come. At least she'll be able to provide inside info on things but figured she'd be there already
    - Hollis and Sara stumbling upon the solider reminded me of being attacked in one of the previous books. Ton of tension there, well done
     
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  8. Truman

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    To this point

    o shit @ the time jump. Michael has come a long way from being a nerdy "Circuit"

    Re the Mt Lion - I thought it may be Greer getting blood for Amy and Carter.

    Something Im struggling with with Zero/Fanning. Some of this goes back to Part III - Im struggling with what Fanning's motivation is. The drunken murder of the ex student seemed so out of place based on the rest of the backstory. He seemed like a genuinely good man that was just dealing with the guilt of being in love with his best friend's girl. To me it felt like a big leap to go from depressed about Liz's death to a drunken attempt to force himself on someone and kill her, although accidental.

    What's his motivation to see things through with Amy? Is it just self preservation? He doesnt seem too interested in that. Im just struggling his motivation for the end game is. :idk:
     
  9. Lorne Malvo

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    Through Part VIII/chapter 68
    I like Peter but he can be so hardheaded sometimes. Happy that Amy and Alicia are on their way (seemingly) towards NYC to confront Fanning. Truman, I won't tag you in this post since you're not here yet, but assuming you read this I think the question you had through Part III was answered here - I think he's pissed off that he was turned into something like this and that maybe he'd rather die like Liz? But I don't think he can do that until he can find out exactly wtf Amy is and what Lear did to her. And why she's so different. Etc. I think he kills because he wants to get to this end point that is here. He wasn't like the rest of The Twelve.

    As to what he does w/Amy once they're together, that's a great question. I think that Amy has this ability to communicate with the afterlife (or at least, this sideways life, that he definitely would be interested in being able to do himself. Once again, because of Liz.

    As far as this part goes, thoughts:

    - Interesting that everyone was together, now they're all apart again, going their own way
    - Wtf happened w/Pim and Amy to get her in that spot that she was in? Caleb obviously noticed something. I have no idea what it is though
    - Jock is going to die doing something good to save some folks

    Been waiting for this book for 3.5 years and now I'm 200 pages from finishing it. As much as I want to slow down, it's just too good right now.
     
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  10. Lorne Malvo

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    Through Part IX/chapter 72
    At least I got the part about Jock right from above.

    - didn't see Amy and Alicia turning around to come back like that
    - getting the dopeys involved was an awesome idea but... doesn't seem like that worked
    - Fanning is so damn smart having them come underneath like that
    - gotta think Alicia is dead. And if so, did not see it coming with 30%+ of the book left (hoping she's alive and wouldn't be surprised but damn)
    Prob done for the night with the bball game + hanging out. Will either finish tomorrow or Monday.
     
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  11. Truman

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    Damn. You guys are flying through it. Niiiiiice.
     
  12. Lorne Malvo

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    I wish everyone else was reading too. Wtf The Blackfish, RonBurgundy, etc!!!!
     
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  13. blind dog

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    I drink on the weekends, doubt I finish until I'm back at work after holiday
     
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  14. Lorne Malvo

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    :respek: I'm currently enjoying a nice cocktail myself.
     
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  15. RonBurgundy

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    :( busy atm. I have a newborn at home.
     
  16. The Blackfish

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    I am in the middle of Dresden and Malazan and I want to reread The Passage and The Twelve first so I'm not sure when I'm going to fit it in. I just got my hardcopy in the mail yesterday and I'm jonesing to read it. May get the first two audiobooks and listen to it at 1.5x speed (I do this with all audiobooks) so I can knock them out, taking a short break from Dresden.
     
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  17. Lorne Malvo

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    Congrats on the sex
     
  18. Truman

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    Through Chapter 55/ Part VII

    Agreed. Holy crap after a slow burn it feels like we were shot out of a cannon. Agree with everything you said. My only question is how did Greer/Amy know to drown her to get her back to human form?
     
  19. Lorne Malvo

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    Through here, which is Part X
    Agreed. Sucks to see him gone, was always a big fan. He went out like a boss though.

    What a crazy group of chapters. I honestly have no idea what's coming next. Figure they get to NYC somehow but is that really the best idea at this point? Amazing how the attack essentially knocked their population down to ~700. Have to imagine it's closer to 500 after getting to the boat and not everyone making it.
     
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  20. Damion

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    He didnt know Liz had died at that point. He was thinking she had just left him to wait at the station so when other chick just leaves him waiting outside he snaps. Abandonment issues imo
     
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  21. Truman

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    Through Part IX

    Damn Lish. Pls be ok. Not looking good tho

    Dont have much to add that hasnt been said already
     
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  22. blind dog

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    Dear everyone on the Nautilus: Just fuck already. Thx
     
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  23. Lorne Malvo

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    Through Part XII/chapter 84
    So, he just dies like that? Idk, I'm pretty disappointed that after three books of buildup that Fanning gets taken out via choking on chains? And then he goes into another afterlife place, even though he's been a POS for a good 100 years? I have certainly enjoyed these books but that was a letdown.

    Liked the way Peter went out. Same with Alicia, that was pretty good. Still have Amy, Michael, and Lore/everyone on the boat left. Plan on finishing the book tonight after work.
     
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  24. Truman

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    Well shit. Read to Ch 82 and was going to go back to work, but I might as well read the next 2 chapters and discuss with LRK. brb
     
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  25. Truman

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    Yeah that seemed abrupt for Fanning. That that whole scene swinging around on a crane with the city crashing down around them was pretty dope.

    - I feel like the "rules" were fudged at the end. How did Peter not just drop dead when Fanning did?
    - Why is Michael going to Europe? Everyone has to be dead, unless the other strain is completely independent of Fanning. Did Lear make some secret strain that got out :warn:

    - What is in Utah, and why is it home? Am I forgetting something? The Colony was in Cali, Amy was from Iowa.

    Anyway, excited to finish.
     
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  26. blind dog

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    was utah where theo & maus stayed behind? is that where future peter saved them from the viral? man im a little confused. also pretty disappointed lish's sword wasn't used for shit. hey peter, instead of hopping off with amy climbing buildings & shit how about you stab fanning in the fucking throat? also i guess i need to go back & re read, did amy just imagine saving peter with her blood or did she actually do it? agree LKRFN88jp , fanning deserves no happy ending. fuck that noise he should suffer for all of eternity
     
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  27. Lorne Malvo

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    I read the next two chapters at lunch so I have the epilogue left and I'll be done.
    I thought these two chapters were super emotional. Getting to the island which SPOILER ALERT on the title of the epilogue
    seems to be in Australia
    and Amy losing Peter for good + wandering all the way west to California hit me in the feels. In a way it made up for how I thought things happened with Fanning.

    Can't wait to see what Amy wrote on that rock. Can't wait to see what the world has become. Also, wtf happened to Michael?
    Looking forward to finishing it. Will post my final thoughts later tonight.
     
    #77 Lorne Malvo, May 31, 2016
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
  28. Truman

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    Could be right about Utah. That's the only thing that sort of makes sense with that.

    The way I read it is that Amy saved Peter w her blood, but he's still a viral. So he needs to take cover during the day and catch up with her at nights.
     
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  29. blind dog

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    Again thought he got long winded in the epilogue but really liked how it ended with him meeting Amy. More thoughts later
     
  30. Lorne Malvo

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    Done
    Much like the Fanning backstory, I really enjoyed this. I would be cool with a short story on these characters even. Cronin is great example #231. The ending with him meeting Amy was awesome. Loved the debate about whether or not that past was actually true or if it just is a story. Good stuff.

    And so we come to the part where we rate the book. I thought there were parts that were absolutely outstanding. Emotions hit hard throughout and there were times where I was genuinely pleased with reading this story and knowing these characters.

    That said, minor quibbles:

    - killing Fanning wasn't as cool as I thought it would be
    - another on Fanning is why did he try to do all of this in the end? Were things that bad to cause him to go this way? I guess but so much of his life was fleshed out but I didn't feel like his motives were
    - along those lines, would have loved more on the virus itself and him turning
    - I don't feel like Michael got a cool ending. I feel like I'm missing five more pages on him

    Honestly, that's pretty much it. It was a page turner and I looked forward to reading any chance I could get. Greatness outweighed the stuff is didn't enjoy as much. First book was 9/10, second was 8/10. I'll go 8.5/10 for the finale.

    Great trilogy. I'll probably read it again in four or five years.
     
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  31. RonBurgundy

    RonBurgundy Well-Known Member

    I started reading last night and tonight. I am about 1/3rd done. Comments soon.
     
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  32. RonBurgundy

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    I actually appreciated the first introduction recap thingy because I did not reread and had to jog my memory about wtf was going on since I read both in early 2013 iirc. Very easy to mentally jump back in.

    Bad analysis time:
    I wanted to say that one of the strongest and most powerful pieces of writing I have read in "modern" books came in the start of book 1 with the telling of Amy and Amy's mom, about the struggle and nearly starving and freezing to death and stuck in fucking IOWA of all places. All kidding aside it was insanely well done. I feel like one of the things lacking in book 2 was anything even remotely similar to the power and impact of that first chapter of book 1. I think Cronin tried to recreate that with Alicia's baby and mourning in the woods, but it felt flat to me, I can say it definitely didn't move the needle as much, but I felt like it sets the tone for the book: THIS WILL NOT BE A HAPPY STORY, THIS IS THE KIND OF SHIT YOU ARE IN FOR.
     
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  33. RonBurgundy

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    backstory was pretttttay fucking boring, but he does wrap it up well at the end of that section and really closes the loop well with a good emotional payoff at the end of the section. Not only with Lear but also with Liz.

    Why is it important? Bad analysis part 2:
    I think Cronin had an ending problem. I've thought about this a lot reading the first 2 books. What is the end game? Either the "good guys" win and we get a stand-up-and-cheer moment as Amy and crew destroy Zero and humanity wins with maybe Amy or Alicia or another major character sacrificing themselves to kill the most horrible, terrifying bad guy ever, Saran himself aka Zero-as-evil-incarnate (aka the ending to every blockbuster movie ending ever) ...or Cronin pulls out the rarely successful good guys lose and evil wins, which leaves everyone pissed and unhappy.

    But now he's added a third option. His antagonist is no longer DRACULA or FREDDY KRUGER or SCAR FROM LION KING. He's not pure evil. He's an honest, smart normalish guy who had a tortured past that wasn't his fault who had tragedy strike him again and again. He's not evil incarnate. He's a flawed character who isn't pure and blameless but also isn't a monster. This makes the ending less trope-ish regardless of what Cronin chooses. It gives the ending more than good vs evil and allows you to add motivations and directions to a "villain" that otherwise wouldn't have mattered.

    Again I'm only 34% in so I'm mostly talking out of my ass.
     
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  34. RonBurgundy

    RonBurgundy Well-Known Member

    Done reading for the night at about ~43% in.
    Weakest part of the book so far. Pure setup. The random chapter about the Iowa Homeland, Zero being a huge brooding drama queen, "oh gosh there's a mountain lion, in no way is this an obvious foreshadowing to an Alicia-like creature who is going to strike the Texas settlements!", etc.

    Hollis and Sara subplot is also confusing to me on its purpose right now and how they will interweave in to the main plot?
     
  35. RonBurgundy

    RonBurgundy Well-Known Member

    Through 35.

    Not a spoiler but I wanted to make a comment about the dystopian genre, vampire/zombie stories, and Classic Westerns. I once read an article about how the decline in Westerns as a genre was closely correlated with the rise of dystopian and Zombie stories. Basically zombie stories ARE Westerns. You have a competent protagonist and crew Protecting and saving every day people from bad guys/monsters in a remote, isolated and harsh environment without much hope of outside saviors. Both focus on survival as well, but usually less important in Westerns.

    Anyways I feel like Cronin is crossing the streams with a dystopian Retro-Western featuring zombie vampires with this Texas settlement side story
     
  36. Truman

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    Through Chapter 88/ Part 13

    WTF is up with the cave and life boat Pim found? That plus peter potentially going back in time to save Theo and Maus has me starting to get a little concerned about the ending. If it turns out to be some weird sideways thing like a LOST ripoff I wont be pleased. Mostly because it doesnt feel earned so far.

    brb. Finishing it now. Just wanted to throw that out there before I finished
     
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  37. Truman

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    Finished

    Gonna have to sit and let this marinate.

    The ending was both satisfactory and not. Thought the ending was cool how they pieced together the story. Kind of like trying to prove the bible was true

    My biggest issue is with Fanning. IDK but just didnt seem like THAT bad of a guy. Certainly not evil enough to want to see humanity end. I get being bummed you never made a move on the love of your life. I get how pissed you'd be if you thought she stood you up. But then once you understand she died coming to meet you, what is there to be so bitter and evil about? :idk: Why did he hate Amy so much? Just because Lear created her? All that is kind of hard for me to swallow.

    Other gripes - what happened with Michael? What was the significance w Utah? How did Peter save Theo and Maus? What was up with Pim finding the life boat from the Bergensfjord? I feel like IM really over looking something obvious.

    Idk what to think about this overall. Need to let this sit for a bit
     
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  38. Lorne Malvo

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    I thought the lifeboat thing was supposed to say someone made it off the ship. Maybe I'm boiling it down too much. Agree with some of the other things you wrote, especially about Fanning. I feel like my grade was too kind on it but I really did enjoy so much about this book. Just some odds and ends that disappointed me.
     
  39. RonBurgundy

    RonBurgundy Well-Known Member

    This section was really well done. You just get this sinking feeling that everything is spiraling and going to turn into pure chaos soon. Except he keeps that momentum through every Caleb and Iowa scene, giving you that overwhelming sense of pure horror at the inevitable return of the virals.

    I'm not a big fan of Amy/Carter imaginary dream world shit, but I guess that's only a minor issue. I feel like it's a cop out way to add character depth to Carter so we actually give 2 shits about him. Same with that exploding car and baby scene, supposed to make us like him and show another reason for his turn to the "good" side. Thought Carter sections were weak in general tbqh.

    Big fan of adding pure horror and dread to the book though. The factory/pile of dead dogs scene in Iowa was really fucking awesome.
     
  40. blind dog

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    my thoughts on the lifeboat was two people bailed somewhere on this route:

    The Maestro walked Michael through the data. Departing from Hong Kong in mid-March, the Bergensfjord had sailed to Hawaii, then passed through the Panama Canal into the Atlantic. According to the time line Michael had established from the newspaper, that much would have occurred before the outbreak of the Easter Virus. They had made port in the Canary Islands, perhaps to refuel, then continued north. At this point, the data changed. The ship had traveled in circles up and down the coast of northern Europe. A brief foray to the Strait of Gibraltar, then it reversed course without entering the Mediterranean and returned to Tenerife. Several weeks elapsed, and they set sail again. The epidemic would have been widespread by this time. They passed through the Strait of Magellan and headed north toward the equator.

    In midocean, the ship appeared to stop. After two motionless weeks, the data ended.

    when i went back and reread that can't be right, right? they are at canary islands then they just pass through strait of magellan in south america? even if they went all that way unmentioned it would put the ship on the wrong side to end up in galveston right? am i taking crazy pills? is there a lesser known strait of magellan? is my geography that bad? does it just float around the entire world back to there?
     
    #90 blind dog, Jun 1, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
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  41. Truman

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    That's kind of my whole issue. How the fuck did a life boat get on that island so long before our group did. Im not an expert on ocean currents, but it seems unlikely that a combination of a life boat making it to New Zealand and the ship drifting all the way to the Gulf of Mexico from the Pacific Ocean.

    I get there are going to be some unanswered questions but I just cant get past some bare implied time jump/timeline fuckery. Touching on that and the Peter going back to save Maus and Theo, then never going back to it really grinds my gears.

    After letting this digest, Im going to rate this a 7. I didnt hate it. I enjoyed the book and it kept me engaged, but the combination of very high expectations and some things, whether you want to call them character flaws or plot holes, I just cant get past.

    Im really hoping Im missing something obvious and someone can make this click for me. I really wanted to be blown away by this book I just wasnt. :/
     
  42. laxjoe

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    Fanning ending was probably my biggest (almost only complaint). It's always tough to kill off the big bad in a way that is satisfying, but I was certainly hoping for something...more. And then him going to eternity with Liz. I get it - they did a great job fleshing out him and he wasn't a bad guy really, but I really don't know how I feel about him getting the happy eternity with Liz. Felt like part of lear (I know that's not how it works) should have been there just to Fuck with him.
     
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  43. laxjoe

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    Finished literally minutes ago
    I really really enjoyed it, for the most part. I loved the slow build of the book. The sense of danger always there in the background that got stronger and stronger the closer we got to the end game. I was about 35% through when I stated reading yesterday and then could not put it down all yesterday evening. I thought the attack by fanning army was some of the best Cronin had written.

    Was very sad when Peter and lish were gone, but thought their endings were fitting for the characters.

    As mentioned above, I was disappointed in the end of Fanning, both on earth and in the afterlife. I haven't read much of the thread, so I don't know everyone's thoughts on the deep drive into his back story, but I thought that was great and very much enjoyed it, but then I'm not sure it all paid off in the end. And while it gave a great basis for why he would eventually end up in that particular part of the afterlife, at the end, I didn't like that. He wasn't "responsible" for Shitty AMC Show of 7B people, but he also kind of was.

    Ummm...michael? I kept waiting for some sort of resolution to his life and was sad when we didn't get it.

    I gave it 4/5 on goodreads, I think 8 or 8.5 is about right. I've been in this world so fully the last couple weeks having reread the first two and then this, I need to step back and think before I really assign it a grade. But at first pass, I feel good with my 8.
     
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  44. RonBurgundy

    RonBurgundy Well-Known Member

    Finished this morning. *7.5/10 I'll start reading spoilers now
     
  45. RonBurgundy

    RonBurgundy Well-Known Member

    I agree with everything said I spoilers about pretty much all the disappointing and unfinished parts to the book.

    I will say that an epilogue is named an epilogue because you are literally not supposed to consider it part of the "book", take that whole fucking epilogue out and make it a short story, and end the book 70 pages earlier than he did. Was bordering on the LOTR trilogy for most prolonged post-climax content that made me want to say END THE FUCKING BOOK ALREADY.

    Also not mentioned so far as disappointing ending
    Alicia? Bad ass supreme, survivor of all kinds of shit, hero of Heroes jumps off a fucking building and commits suicide?
     
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  46. The Blackfish

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    Started Passage reread today
     
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  47. Damion

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    I took the whole life boat thing to mean that it was their fate to end up on that island. It goes with the kind of religous theme of the book and shows god didnt abandon them and that this was all meant to be. A modern day Noahs ark imo

    still have no clue over the Peter time travel tho
     
  48. One Knight

    One Knight https://www.twitch.tv/thatrescueguy
    Donor
    UCF KnightsTampa Bay LightningBig 12 Conference

    Finished earlier today, here we go with impressions.
    Overall, loved the book, 2nd favorite in the series behind The Passage.
    - The Epilogue was way too long, should have kept the speech at the beginning, given a chapter establishing the dude was a Jaxon and the story about his Mom, then had him meet Amy, then done. I'm a Cronin fan of the highest order and even I was asking myself where the fuck it was all going.
    - The chapters in Iowa were kind of cool in showing how the virals were coming back, but no one cared about Eustace, was a very minor character, and they could have done more with Caleb discovering the virals then doing what they did. Didn't detract from the book, just seemed thrown in and weird in the context of the rest of the book.
    - The two scenes where they were racing the darkness to get to Kerrville/the boat were the best in the book, dude knows how to ratchet up the tension. The attack on Kerrville was pretty great too, loved how Sister Peg went out, true OG.
    - Was surprised how they handled Alicia coming back and how Peter reacted to her, they kind of made their amends but i was shocked by the ferocity of his anger toward her.
    - I actually liked how Alicia went out, she had done everything she could, Fanning was dead, she was dying anyway, and she wanted to be with Rose. Sad as hell but she earned the right to go out on her own terms.
    - Don't be surprised if Michael heading to England factors into a sequel at some point. But even if it doesn't, it fits what his character became, hitting the ocean to see what the fuck is out there.
    - I'm with y'all, don't understand how Peter saved Maus and Theo. They said the Farmstead existed out of time, so I guess it could have happened like that, but still can't wrap my mind around it.
     
  49. Moxin24

    Moxin24 Show me that smile
    Staff Donor
    Michigan WolverinesDetroit Lions

    Just finished.

    Definitely worth the time. Not sure if I liked the Catcher in the Rye interlude there in the middle but I appreciate the author giving a backstory on Fanning instead of making him a super villain.
     
    blind dog and RonBurgundy like this.
  50. The Blackfish

    The Blackfish The Fish in Black
    Staff Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideIndianapolis ColtsBook Club

    Finished yesterday 7.8/10. Agree with most people's thoughts, although I think Fanning backstory and the epilogue were two of my favorite parts

    the dude at the end telling Amy her children had come home made me feel feels.