Detroit Pistons thread: With the exchange rate that’s a win streak

Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by DeToxRox, May 19, 2015.

  1. DeToxRox

    DeToxRox Uncle T
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  2. Randy Bobandy

    Randy Bobandy Fan of: Michigan, Pistons
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    Can we continue to tank in the second bubble?
     
  3. DeToxRox

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    Part of me is bummed I won’t get to see Reggie play hero ball against the Knicks five times this fall.
     
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  4. DeToxRox

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  5. MG2

    MG2 I like to give away joy for free
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    My current draft board for the Pistons...

    1. Edwards
    2. Okongwu
    3. Haliburton
    4. Hayes
    5. Vassell
    6. Lewis
    7. Wiseman
    8. Bey
    9. Okoro
    10. Avdija

    I have no interest in LaMelo (can't shoot and has no experience) or Obi Toppin (no defense or position)
     
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  6. DeToxRox

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    I think I like Hayes potential most, but I really like Haliburton’s game. He seems like he’s the kind of competitor Weaver likes to gamble on as well.
     
  7. Anison

    Anison Fair and square
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    The disrespect
     
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  8. RalfBully

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    Can someone go back to the Blake trade and re-post some great responses itt?
     
  9. Vinegar Strokes

    Vinegar Strokes Fire Izzo
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    Pretty much everybody hated it except for that little bitch Heesu.

     
  10. ~ taylor ~

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    There wasn't a ton of talk about the Blake trade at the time, but it wasn't favorable:

     
  11. ~ taylor ~

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    On the plus side, searching "Blake" in this thread brings up a lot of Steve Blake hate and that was fun.
     
  12. Randy Bobandy

    Randy Bobandy Fan of: Michigan, Pistons
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    UPDATE: still depressed.

    though I will say that I do love Blake. Seeing him gut it out and (sorta) almost leading us to one playoff victory against a half-asleep Milwaukee team was probably one of the best moments I’ve had as a Pistons fan in the past decade+. Problem is that was always the realistic ceiling for us with him on the roster. Not his fault. He’s been great when healthy.
     
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  13. buckwild

    buckwild #BucketsGetsBuckets
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    Good summation on Blake. He works his ass off and seems to give a shit, despite being on a shit team. I'm a fan.
     
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  14. Constant

    Constant Meh
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    Plus he's maybe the best podcast guest in recent NBA memory.
     
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  15. smeegsgreen

    smeegsgreen Big fan of Koalas
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    I moved to MD for Middle School and caught some Blake and Juan Dixon games in person and they won 2002 title so I’ve always been a Blake fan.
     
  16. RalfBully

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    WTF blake are we talking about? Steve Blake almost led us to a playoff win?
     
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  17. Randy Bobandy

    Randy Bobandy Fan of: Michigan, Pistons
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    I was talking about Griffin but let’s go with Steve because that’s much more fun.
     
  18. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Well-Known Member
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    still sad we never got to see a healthy run of Blake/AD/Jackson (also Rose this year). Think they would have be in the 3-5 seed range this year and with having this break could have made some noise in Eastern playoffs
     
  19. RalfBully

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    So maybe win one playoff series?!
     
  20. MG2

    MG2 I like to give away joy for free
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    In 2018-19, Reggie, Drummond and Blake played 82, 79 and 75 regular season games, respectively. They were healthy until the last few weeks of the season when Blake went down. We saw a healthy run from that group, and it was a likely 7-seed if Blake hadn't gotten hurt.
     
  21. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Well-Known Member
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    If healthy they could have hung with any team in the East outside of the Bucks, maybe a conference finals run if everything falls their way. Which is pretty much this franchise's ceiling for the foreseeable future barring Bates becoming the next Lebron and wanting to come home at some point
     
  22. Randy Bobandy

    Randy Bobandy Fan of: Michigan, Pistons
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    Does gores have a kid who can represent the team at draft lotteries?!
     
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  23. DeToxRox

    DeToxRox Uncle T
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    I assume they are moving the team downtown.
     
  24. DeToxRox

    DeToxRox Uncle T
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  25. MG2

    MG2 I like to give away joy for free
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    So we have two G League teams now?
     
  26. DeToxRox

    DeToxRox Uncle T
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    We are dumping GR after this season. A while back it was announced that we wanted a G League team in Detroit but GR wasn’t willing to relocate the team. No idea what they are going to do now.
     
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  27. MG2

    MG2 I like to give away joy for free
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    I have no clue if these teams make money for their cities or anything of the sort, but I hope GR can keep the team there if it's profitable.
     
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  28. buckwild

    buckwild #BucketsGetsBuckets
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    Sounds like they played themselves unless Chicago or Indy need one.
     
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  29. Vinegar Strokes

    Vinegar Strokes Fire Izzo
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    Hell yeah. Great news. We got 2 G league teams now
     
  30. Vinegar Strokes

    Vinegar Strokes Fire Izzo
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    maybe the GR Drive can sign Trey Burke and Xavier Simpson. That could save the franchise.
     
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  31. DeToxRox

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    Get some work release for Mateen and Appling and we got a stew cooking
     
  32. DeToxRox

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    Ooh if we can get Mateen, the Drive can do a whole promotion around his ability to penetrate unassuming defenders
     
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  33. DeToxRox

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    Where is my boy Adrien Payne? Can we get him to work some of that double team magic with Appling?
     
  34. Tug

    Tug Well-Known Member
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    Based on statistics with the G-League’s Westchester Knicks, it might be more prudent to sign Travis Trice than Trey Burke. Stats are pretty similar and I think Trice is younger.
     
  35. Tug

    Tug Well-Known Member
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    I think Appling is experiencing success in a prison league somewhere and we don’t want to impede that positive progress
     
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  36. Constant

    Constant Meh
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    TKO for DeToxRox. Third post was just piling on.
     
  37. DeToxRox

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    Lottery tomorrow. I guess I want to win it?
     
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  38. MG2

    MG2 I like to give away joy for free
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    The combination of our luck the last 12 years and the Red Wings' luck the last 3-4, I'm expecting us to pick 7 or 8.
     
  39. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Well-Known Member
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    At this point, I'm just rooting for them not to have to move down
     
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  40. DeToxRox

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    That’s the thing. We will have wasted all those lottery losses in good drafts to end up winning the lottery in a shit draft.
     
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  41. Vinegar Strokes

    Vinegar Strokes Fire Izzo
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    Watch us win it the year the draft sucks.
     
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  42. MG2

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    I would be interested to see who we picked between Edwards or Ball at 1. There was a long article on ESPN today about Ball's last five years and I just don't get the hype, but some people are convinced he has the highest ceiling by far.

    The good thing if we do land in the 5-8 range is that most of the teams ahead of us already have PGs and we would still have a decent shot at landing Haliburton or Hayes if that's where we wanted to go.
     
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  43. DeToxRox

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    I am sold on Haliburton but Ball is probably what the franchise needs, assuming he pans out.
     
  44. MG2

    MG2 I like to give away joy for free
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    I really like Haliburton and think he does a lot of the same stuff as Ball, only he's much better now and has a much higher floor. Some people think he's not a PG long term, which I kind of get. He's one of those guys who everyone would have loved 20 years ago, but now he's not the modern PG who is a threat to go for 25+ every night.

    I bet GS is really high on him and it wouldn't shock me if they took him top 2 or 3. He's perfect for them right now.
     
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  45. MG2

    MG2 I like to give away joy for free
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    This the Ball story from ESPN+ today. It's pretty long and the format sucks to c/p, but I think I got it all.

    How did LaMelo Ball morph from social media star known for half-court heaves and cherry picking into a legitimate No. 1 pick contender with more upside than any player in the 2020 class?

    Ball has traveled one of the most obscure paths of any top prospect in recent memory. The hype existed from an early age, following him from Chino Hills High School in California to Lithuania, and from Ohio to Australia. And while his skill, creativity and potential have always been on display, belief in Ball's ability to reach his star ceiling didn't gain real momentum around the league until less than a year ago.

    Heading into Thursday's NBA draft lottery on ESPN (8:30 p.m. ET following Bucks-Magic), Ball remains the most polarizing prospect in this class.

    To get a better understanding of his game, his rise and what's next, let's dive into Ball's basketball evolution from his varsity debut in 2015 to now.

    MORE: Top 100 NBA draft rankings

    Chino Hills High School | Fr. and So.

    Standing around 5-foot-10 in shoes with a slight frame, the youngest Ball brother was a key part of one of the winningest teams in high school basketball history as a freshman. Ball skipped eighth grade to play one year with his brothers Lonzo and LiAngelo, and the move paid dividends as Chino Hills went 35-0, knocking off powerhouse Montverde at the City of Palms Classic in the process. LaMelo served as a microwave scorer on a team that overwhelmed opponents with its run-and-gun style, earning some criticism for the wild outlets and reliance on deep 3s.

    Biggest developments


    Though he wouldn't always defend with consistent intensity, Ball had unlimited confidence from deep, considerable comfort with the ball, budding vision and great touch around the rim.

    "I don't remember him missing layups or floaters," said Steve Baik, the Chino Hills coach at the time.

    He showed glimpses as a facilitator but was more wired to score at that stage, either tossing in 3s with his two-handed jumper or finishing with finesse. Maybe the most impressive part was Ball's relaxed mentality during moments. While his older players battled nerves in that Montverde matchup, Baik said he found LaMelo to be perfectly at ease, cracking jokes in the locker room.

    Biggest concerns

    With Lonzo gone and a new coach in charge, LaMelo quickly developed a gunner reputation as a sophomore for his absurd pull-up 3s, cherry picking and lack of defense. After scoring 92 points in a game, he was criticized by Charles Barkley for rarely crossing half court.

    Although he was starting to grow and had some "wow" moments flashing real skills, Ball didn't always play efficiently and he built bad defensive habits. He contributed to a 60-game win streak, but questions about his style translating to the highest levels were already cropping up.

    What NBA scouts were saying

    NBA scouts had yet to see LaMelo in person through his first two high school seasons. They aren't allowed into high school gyms, and they usually catch 15- and 16-year-old prospects on the FIBA circuit or at USA Basketball camps. Ball never played for Team USA, and he competed on the Adidas Circuit with team Big Baller Brand as opposed to the more heavily-scouted Nike EYBL.

    Scouts knew him more for packing a Las Vegas gym in a bout with Zion Williamson, the deep 3s and lack of defense than his real strengths at the time.

    Vytautas | Lithuania

    LaMelo skipped his junior season to play professionally with his brother LiAngelo, signing with Vytautas of the Lithuanian League. He would go on to play eight LKL games and five Big Baller Brand Challenge games against Lithuanian youth clubs.

    I flew to Kaunas, Lithuania to watch LaMelo practice and play against Zalgiris' under-18 team, which featured 6-4 point guard and current NBA prospect Rokas Jokubaitis, Gonzaga sophomore Martynas Arlauskas and incoming Creighton freshman Modestas Kancleris. This was a great opportunity to see Ball against other prospects in his age group.

    Biggest development

    Even at 16, Ball still looked a bit behind physically, but he was starting to sprout up, standing close to 6-5. Both during that Zalgiris game and on tape that season, his smooth handle, passing instincts and creativity stood out. He changed speeds effortlessly and could whip the ball all over the floor with either hand, showing a willingness to go for the home run play that is rare for his age.

    Jokubaitis went for 31 points and Zalgiris won, but Ball still caught my eye during his 20-minute stint, racking up a few highlights on his way to a 10-point, 9-assist, 6-turnover outing. I wrote at the time that: "From a sheer talent perspective, Ball is a unique, gifted prospect who has more than enough game to play in the NBA if he's put in the right situation."

    Despite the inefficiency, Ball was able to notch per-40-minute marks of 20.3 points, 7.4 assists, 2.3 steals and 3.9 turnovers. For me, this was the first time that it was fairly clear he had NBA talent if he were ever able to find a way to play in more meaningful games and improve some of his habits.

    Biggest concerns

    It didn't take long to realize that this whole Lithuanian experience was more about generating content for the Ball's online platforms than maximizing LaMelo's talent. Big Baller Brand cameras were everywhere. The stars of the show were miked up during team practices. LaMelo looked bored and uninterested over the course of one practice, as he couldn't understand what the head coach was saying and didn't have much interaction with teammates.

    "He is very talented but didn't use his talent in the best way," one former Vytautas teammate said. "Bad shot selection because nobody tried to control him and [he was] lazy when his father wasn't in the gym."

    There's certainly value in finding a situation where young players are able to see big minutes and play through mistakes. There's no doubt that Chino Hills' empowering style and the lack of on-court restrictions LaVar Ball put on his sons at a young age allowed LaMelo to foster the brilliance we see now. Yet, it didn't take long to see that this simply wasn't the environment to help LaMelo develop winning habits.

    Vytautas went 8-27 that season, and Ball got up 12.5 triples per 40 minutes. His defense was still nonexistent and he didn't value possessions, instead regularly chasing highlights.

    What NBA scouts were saying

    Although teams were focused more on the 2018 and 2019 draft classes at the time, the fact that there wasn't one NBA scout at that Vytautas-Zalgiris game told me how evaluators viewed Ball's stock. The Adidas Next Generation Tournament was happening right around the corner and I figured at least some scouts would arrive early to get a look at Ball. But the bizarre situation and fanfare was enough for them to stay away.

    At the time, I saw LaMelo as an eventual NBA talent but couldn't say with any certainty that he'd carve out a successful career at the highest level given his situation. NBA scouts wanted to see Ball play meaningful minutes in which he had to defend and make strong decisions with the ball.

    Spire Institute | Sr.

    Following the Lithuanian experience, Ball played 11 games in LaVar Ball's JBA for the Los Angeles Ballers, a low level of competition that led to wild averages of 40 points, 13.8 rebounds and 11.0 assists in 44 minutes per game. Those scores sometimes reached the 170s. LaMelo's half-court pull-ups and optional defense were back in full force.

    But Ball finally was able to move back to the prep school ranks and play for Spire Institute in Ohio. One year after that odd display in Lithuania, I caught a 17-year-old Ball taking on a well-regarded Prolific Prep program that featured now Texas Tech incoming freshman Nimari Burnett.

    Biggest development

    Ball didn't come out to warm up until there were about 90 seconds left before tipoff. But as he trotted onto the floor, his physical maturation was clear. In just over a year, Ball had grown at least two inches while also starting to fill out his frame. Now with elite size for a lead guard, Ball still had the handle and scoring instincts we saw when he was at Chino Hills. And his promise as a big playmaker showed first-round pick potential.

    It quickly became clear that passing the ball was LaMelo's superpower. Right hand, left hand, on the move or stationary, Ball could make every single read in the book. Not only did he have the Lonzo-esque transition outlets, he was also much more advanced as a pick-and-roll distributor, with the handle and shiftiness that Lonzo was missing.

    "That for me was when he took it to another level," one NCAA assistant coach who saw Ball live five times said during his season at Spire. "Size, his creativity with the ball, passing and pick-and-roll handle."

    Although it was only one game and Spire lost by 30 points, Ball's in-game decision-making was improving, and he showed the ability to adapt his style against a higher level of competition. His highlights made him look like a future top-10 pick.

    Biggest concerns


    Though I left Dayton much more optimistic about Ball's long-term future, he still had questions to answer about his shooting and defensive focus. Ball did meet Burnett at the rim for a block and showed his value as a rebounder/off-ball rover, but he still had his lazy moments on that end while spraying jumpers everywhere.

    Ball was also quiet on the floor and didn't display a clear level of leadership as the primary ball handler. But given all the talent Ball displayed, the only thing holding him back from breaking into the lottery conversation was the lack of a clear development path as he wrapped up his third stop in four years.

    What NBA scouts were saying

    The majority of American NBA scouts still hadn't seen Ball because of his winding trajectory. They weren't allowed to watch him with Spire, he had yet to play in any USA Basketball events and very few made the trek to Lithuania. Because of his professional experience, Ball also was ineligible to play in high school all-star showcases such as the McDonald's All American game, where executives generally get their first extended look at prep players.

    Having not watched him live up until that point, most NBA scouts struggled to see how his talent could outweigh some of the noise that comes along with drafting a teenage celebrity.

    Illawarra | NBL

    A now supersized Ball took the momentum from his bounce-back season with Spire into the summer of 2019, opening eyes with his play at the Drew League in Los Angeles.

    ESPN's Jonathan Givony got a firsthand look at the 6-7 Ball during the Drew League playoffs. Givony raved about Ball's passing instincts, feel for the game and potential as a shooter. More and more evaluators started to tout Ball as a potential top-five pick given his size and skill with the basketball.

    With his college eligibility squandered from the Lithuania experience, Ball ultimately signed with the Illawarra Hawks in the Australian NBL. This was Ball's first opportunity to focus strictly on basketball, out of the spotlight and away from the cameras. He was living with former high school coach, mentor and longtime basketball journeyman Jermaine Jackson. And it didn't take much time at all for NBA scouts to see what a talent Ball truly was.

    After an excellent four-game showing at the NBL Blitz preseason tournament in September, he moved up more than 20 spots to No. 3 in our 2020 mock draft. Ball averaged 14.5 points, 5.0 rebounds, 3.3 assists and 1.8 turnovers in just 27 minutes while shooting 54% from 2 and 38% from 3.

    "If he keeps this up, I don't see any way he isn't in the conversation for the No. 1 overall pick," one NBA executive told Givony at the time. "He completely changed my perception of the type of prospect he is, and all of the background info I gathered here from his coaches and teammates paint a very different story of what I thought about him off the court as well."

    Biggest development

    Over the course of his 16 games with Illawarra (including the preseason and regular season), Ball averaged 16.4 points, 6.9 rebounds, 5.9 assists and 2.3 turnovers in just over 30 minutes -- impressive marks for an 18-year-old at that level. During the regular season, he posted a stellar 2.83 assist-to-turnover ratio and rated as one of the league's most valuable players despite his age, according to ESPN's Kevin Pelton. Sure, his sub 50% true shooting percentage wasn't ideal, but Ball showed enough of his talent as both a scorer and facilitator to earn well-deserved interest from teams at the top of the draft.

    I flew over to see Ball play against RJ Hampton and the New Zealand Breakers. After Ball disappointed in a 31-point road loss, I was curious to see how he would respond. Coaches called him out in film sessions for his shot selection, and the Hawks sat at 1-5, with growing skepticism around the team.

    A few days later against Perth, Ball played one of his more complete games of the season. Teams darted under screens and tried to bait him into quick pull-up 3s, but he did his best to get everyone else involved before looking for his own offense. He chased around shooters on the other end, staying engaged on defense and proving he's already an elite rebounder for his position. He almost led a short-handed Illawarra team to victory after Aaron Brooks tore his Achilles mid-game.

    Ball finished with 16 points, 9 rebounds, 7 assists and 3 turnovers in 32 minutes while making a host of NBA-level passes. He rose to the occasion in a serious game with real implications. And he ended the season on a high note, averaging 23.2 points (on 48% shooting from 2 and 30% from 3), 9.0 rebounds, 8.4 assists and 2.8 turnovers over his last five games.

    Biggest concerns

    Though Ball averaged nearly a triple-double per 40 minutes, the shooting is still a completely fair question. He converted only 25% from 3 on 81 attempts during the regular season. Although he's a career 82% from the free throw line, according to our database, Ball has made just 27% of his 356 career 3-pointers, with somewhat undisciplined mechanics.

    Without a threat from deep range, there are questions about how Ball scores efficiently in the half court. He's a smooth ball handler, but he's not the most physical or explosive driver. The fact that he has touch shots from all over the floor and can finish with either hand around the rim will make him a threat even when the jumper isn't falling, but NBA teams still wonder how he'll handle a heavy dose of switches or unders.

    And the biggest question he'll still have to answer is his defensive approach and ability to impact winning. Though he has great size and shows anticipation when he's engaged, the bad defensive habits are still there. And we've hardly seen how he performs down the stretch of close, meaningful contests.

    What NBA scouts are saying

    Most scouts see Ball as a top-three talent in this draft and a likely top-five pick. Even though his season was cut short because of a bone bruise in his foot and his team struggled, there's a belief that Ball didn't have enough help and that he'll look even more dynamic at the next level with an elite finisher and shooters around him.

    But there are more questions among teams about Ball's ability to realize his potential than most prospects with his talent level. Did he just put on a good show while in Australia to improve his draft stock, or has he matured in his approach to the game? Front offices still wonder if they'll have to deal with the headaches the Lakers faced during Lonzo's stint in Los Angeles.

    Despite all that, Ball would be my selection at No. 1, regardless of any team fit or need. Several general managers and front-office executives told ESPN that Ball has the most star power in the draft and should be considered a top-two or top-three pick leaguewide. Whether he ends up turning around a franchise or not, there's no question LaMelo Ball will enter the NBA in style, 5.5 million Instagram followers and all, generating highlight after highlight wherever he lands, just as he's been doing since those early days in Chino Hills.
     
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  46. DeToxRox

    DeToxRox Uncle T
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    Even though I bumped this thread yesterday, I forgot the lottery was in 15
     
  47. Vinegar Strokes

    Vinegar Strokes Fire Izzo
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    Lol. Of course.

    Don’t really care as this draft sucks ass.
     
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  48. Randy Bobandy

    Randy Bobandy Fan of: Michigan, Pistons
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    Starting to understand why we didn't bother tanking in the past.
     
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  49. smeegsgreen

    smeegsgreen Big fan of Koalas
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  50. DeToxRox

    DeToxRox Uncle T
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    Feels like we can still land Haliburton or Hayes.