Detroit Red Wings: Tried to thread ban Vinegar Strokes but even he has a NMC

Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by DeToxRox, Jan 24, 2016.

  1. Vinegar Strokes

    Vinegar Strokes Suck our Dicks. Fire Everybody
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    For some reason I thought Hughes was a defenseman. Really looking forward to us winning the lottery.
     
  2. Manny

    Manny I love lamp.

    Oldest and youngest Hughes' are defenseman. Jack, the middle child, is a C and future savior.
     
  3. DeToxRox

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    Hughes is the gem of this draft but Dylan Cozens would be a fantastic consolation. He’s a big, fast playmaking C.
     
  4. DeToxRox

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    Also this antiquated notion that vets who know the league should keep getting ice time is a joke. We are horrible with the kids and we are just as bad without the kids. Stop wasting time with band aids. Let the kids sink or swim.
     
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  5. Vinegar Strokes

    Vinegar Strokes Suck our Dicks. Fire Everybody
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    I’ve only watched bits and pieces of most games, but Vanek looks like shit. What a waste of $$, and horrible signing
     
  6. DeToxRox

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    Ras with his first goal tonight. Larkin also scored a beaut.
     
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  7. DeToxRox

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    And Mantha just scored
     
  8. DeToxRox

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    Vanek left the game with an injury.

    Nielsen and AA were out tonight already.

    We have ten forwards and Witowski.
     
  9. DetroitNole

    DetroitNole Well-Known Member
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    Went to find Zadina stats with so many forwards hurt, hes a -9 in 8 games...
     
  10. DeToxRox

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    Give him some time. I bet he goes to play in the WJC and then is up for good after the New Year.
     
  11. smeegsgreen

    smeegsgreen Big fan of Koalas
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    Howard doing his best to lose this game
     
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  12. Vinegar Strokes

    Vinegar Strokes Suck our Dicks. Fire Everybody
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    So Zadina sucks too?
     
  13. DeToxRox

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    Wow Cholowski
     
  14. Vinegar Strokes

    Vinegar Strokes Suck our Dicks. Fire Everybody
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  15. DeToxRox

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    Larkin was amazing tonight
     
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  16. DeToxRox

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    Ras scored again. Cholowski with a helper.
     
  17. UrbanResignation

    UrbanResignation Damn, it feels good to be a gangster
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    Gator also got a easy gimme goal too. So he's got an open netter and a goal anyone could've tapped in. Stuck with this overpaid dumbshit motherfucker forever.
     
  18. DetroitNole

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    Zadina scored twice tonight (his 3rd and 4th)
     
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  19. DeToxRox

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    Larkin hobbled off the ice to end the first and it doesn’t appear that he’s on the bench to start the second.
     
  20. DeToxRox

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    As I said that, he has risen
     
  21. DeToxRox

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    Zadina had a helper last night
     
  22. Vinegar Strokes

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    Big deal, he should be putting up a point per game.
     
  23. spartanchuck

    spartanchuck Well-Known Member

    He has been coming close to that recently.
     
  24. DetroitNole

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    3rd straight win where we came back from 2 down.

    Still not a very good team, but the young guys looking good and at least this team is watchable this season.
     
  25. The Banks

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    We need to quit winning. Glad to see the likes of Larkin, Mantha, and AA are dominating though
     
  26. DeToxRox

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    Griffs have a day game today; Zadina has both goals. He’s up to 10 points in 14 GP.
     
  27. MG2

    MG2 No judgement in brainstorming
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    I'm all in on Cholowski. Big fan of his start to the season, as well as Larkin averaging a point per game.

    Who do we trade for at the deadline now that we're the hottest team in the league?
     
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  28. DeToxRox

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    Cholowski is very good. I think he is a #2 going forward, though it sucks he’s losing ice time to the vets.

    I think Nyquist is getting moved, assuming he waves his NMC. I presume we will try to sign him to an extension but I don’t think he will bite. I wouldn’t hate bringing him back, as we don’t have many play makers, but I wouldn’t go nuts trying to re-sign him.

    I could see Glendening getting moved. Maybe Daley.

    I don’t see a Howard trade materializing, so I think the guys listed above are it.
     
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  29. DeToxRox

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    I still don’t think we will see Zadina until after the WJC, but if injuries strike, he could earn an audition. I think after the WJC, he will be up full time.
     
  30. Manny

    Manny I love lamp.

    They need to knock it the fuck off.
     
  31. DeToxRox

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    We will take a step back, but as long as Mantha, Larkin, AA, Cholowski and Rasmussen are producing, we just aren’t one of the three worst teams in the league.
     
  32. Manny

    Manny I love lamp.

    I'm okay with all that, I need more Coreau esque goalie performances to counter act.

    Ras is staying up for the season I assume seeing how he passed the threshold to kick back down to juniors?
     
  33. DeToxRox

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    He will probably be allowed to play for Canada at the WJC but beyond that, he’s up for the year.
     
  34. DetroitNole

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    Looks like Helm about to get his annual IR trip
     
  35. DeToxRox

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  36. DeToxRox

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    Some prospect updates:

    Veleno: 22 GP, 16 G, 19 A, 35 PT

    Veleno is doing everything you want him to do in the Q. He will play for GR next season, likely centering the top line. He will see time with the Wings sometime next year.

    Jared McIssac: 16 GP, 5 G, 11 A, 16 PT

    McIssac becoming a PPG player is a welcome surprise. He may actually turn into a top 3 D if his development holds.

    Filip Zadina: 17 GP, 7 G, 4 A, 11 PT

    By all accounts Zadina is starting to look the part of a top 10 pick. .61 PPG as an 18 year old on a meddling AHL team is nothing to sneeze at. He will head over to the WJC on a line with Necas. Those two should be dynamite. I expect Zadina earns a call up shortly after the WJC.

    Filip Hronek: 12 GP, 2 G, 8 A, 12 PT

    He is playing well for GR. He shouldn’t be on that team though. We need to move Jensen so Hronek can play in the NHL.

    Jonatan Berrgren: 16 GP, 0 G, 3 A, 3 PT


    The SHL is a tough place for an undersized 18 year old to develop. I wonder if the Wings might try to push him to the CHL next season.
     
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  37. The Banks

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    Lost 7-5 tonight. Those are the kind of games I wanna see.

    Mantha with 2+1
    Cholo with 1+1
     
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  38. DeToxRox

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    A bad December is inevitable. We have come back from too many defects for that to not even out. Let’s hope the team struggles all month long, but our prospects have a good WJC.
     
  39. hoss2183

    hoss2183 Well-Known Member

    Darren Dreger reporting that St Louis is looking at Jimmy Howard as a trade candidate. The Wings should definitely try to strike a deal. Howard has been awesome so far this year. Dreger mentions Robert Thomas and Jordan Kyrou as potential trade pieces in the absence of a first round pick. Both guys are legit top 20 prospects in the NHL so I find it hard to believe the Blues would do that but maybe if we add something (a mid round pick or Nyquist?)
    Both guys project as top 6 forwards.

    Also, moving Howard will certainly help the lose for Hughes cause.

    https://www.tsn.ca/video/insider-trading-rumours-swirl-as-nylander-deadline-draws-closer~1550478
     
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  40. DeToxRox

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    I don’t think we could even sniff Kyrou but I think we could get Thomas if we included Gus. We would need to bring salary back, like Allen. That isn’t a problem though.
     
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  41. The Banks

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    Howard and Nyquist for Parayko
     
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  42. hoss2183

    hoss2183 Well-Known Member

    Good breakdown from The Athletic on the Howard to St. Louis rumor(s). Howard all of the sudden has a little more value than expected.

    I have to imagine Philly is interested in a goaltender too.

    Exploring the key considerations for a Jimmy Howard trade with the Blues


    By Max Bultman Nov 29, 2018 71
    They certainly weren’t Jimmy Howard’s two best games of the year, but with Blues general manager Doug Armstrong in town for both of them, the talk of a potential Howard-to-St. Louis trade has carved out its place on the rumor mill.

    With the Blues playing in Detroit on Wednesday, Armstrong arrived early to take in the Red Wings’ Monday tilt with the Blue Jackets — a game from which Howard was pulled after allowing three goals in the first period. Following that game, TSN’s Darren Dreger reported that St. Louis had “paid considerable attention” to Howard.

    But beyond the interest, how much sense does such a trade between these two teams actually make? And what would a realistic, workable version of a Howard deal look like?

    Let’s dive in.

    The ask

    TSN’s Frank Seravalli reported Detroit is believed to be holding out for a first-round pick in a Howard trade.

    St. Louis, it should be noted, doesn’t actually have one.

    The Blues gave up their 2019 first-rounder (top-10 protected) to Buffalo in a trade for center Ryan O’Reilly. And frankly, it’s assuming a lot to think they’d be interested in that price straight up anyway.

    If they are, however, St. Louis does have a highly regarded farm system that could be an appealing alternative for Detroit, headlined by the rookie Robert Thomas, who Corey Pronman rated as the league’s No. 4 overall prospect heading into the season. That seems like a pretty aspirational ask, though, as does one for Jordan Kyrou — the reigning OHL Most Outstanding Player.

    Still, in the absence of Detroit’s reported preference for a first-rounder, top prospects are the most obvious potential workaround. St. Louis isn’t just going to hand off a top prospect for a goalie on an expiring contract, nor could it afford to take Howard without shedding some serious cap space.

    Both issues, however, could potentially be lessened if Detroit were willing to take on Blues goalie Jake Allen. And that presents its own host of questions.


    St. Louis may need to move goalie Jake Allen to create cap space if it’s interested in Jimmy Howard. (Raj Mehta / USA TODAY Sports)
    Jake Allen

    Obviously, the Blues wouldn’t even be in this conversation if Allen were playing like he did in his first three full NHL seasons, when he averaged a .916 save percentage from 2014-15 to 2016-17.

    Over the past two seasons, though, those numbers have fallen sharply. Allen entered Thursday at just an .894 mark in 18 starts this season, and the Blues as a team have allowed the sixth-most goals per game in the league.

    That certainly explains the interest in Howard, sitting at a .922 save percentage in 18 starts.

    St. Louis is already right up against the salary cap, though, which means shedding Allen’s $4.35 million cap hit could become necessary to make room for Howard, whose hit is $5.29 million for this season. In fact, with CapFriendly listing just over $40,000 in space for St Louis, even more finagling may need to be done on the Blues’ end.

    But if taking back Allen becomes a core tenet, that’s where the Red Wings would have to gauge their own appetite a bit.

    Whereas right now they’re in position to free up the entirety of Howard’s cap hit this summer, Allen’s deal lasts through 2021 — meaning, combined with Jonathan Bernier’s $3 million AAV, Detroit would have $7.35 million committed to the crease through that season. And that’s without a bona fide No. 1 option.

    Now, if Detroit were to decide it feels really good about Bernier, that might not be too daunting. The Red Wings were already going to need to sign another goalie this offseason anyway.

    But Bernier hasn’t played 40 games in any of the last three seasons, so even while the former No. 11 overall pick has a clear desire to be a No. 1 goaltender in the league — and even though he’s had a few bright games in goal so far — it’s worth wondering how ready he would actually be to take on such a substantial bump in usage.

    The other option, of course, would be trying to get Allen’s game back up to form, but that provides plenty of uncertainty in its own right.

    Allen’s best years came under former Blues coach Ken Hitchcock, who has a bit of a history for presiding over huge years for goaltenders. Former Blues goalie Brian Elliott, for example, posted save percentages of .930 and .940 under Hitchcock, and was above .915 in four of their five seasons together. Away from Hitchcock, Elliott has never reached that mark over a full season.

    Likewise, former Blue Jackets goalie Steve Mason amassed 15 of his 34 career shutouts in his two seasons under Hitchcock — and those were the first two seasons of a 10-year career.

    Hitchcock, of course, left St. Louis midway through 2016-17 — which, if you’ll remember, is the last season Allen’s numbers were a tier above their current standing.

    This isn’t to say Allen’s successes were solely about Hitchcock or those systems, but it should at the very least provide context for what Detroit would have to consider if it were to receive Allen, and his contract, back in a deal. What can they realistically expect from him, and how does it impact their longer-term future at the position?

    That’s where talk of a potential buyout could come into play, but even that raises its own questions — how much do you want to be paying in dead cap hit to have someone not play for you … particularly when you would still need to sign someone else at his position?

    If a potential offer with a top prospect is good enough, maybe you just do the deal and figure out the rest later. This year, certainly, it shouldn’t be a huge inhibitor— not with the Red Wings already expected to finish near the bottom of the standings.

    But at some point, Detroit will want sturdy goaltending to play behind its growing young core.

    To be fair, it’s not like the Red Wings can guarantee that right now anyway. Howard’s deal expires at season’s end, and the team’s top goaltending prospects are years away.

    Regardless, though, filling up cap space with uncertainty isn’t an easy means to that end, either.

    The Jimmy Howard side

    There are, of course, a fair amount of questions surrounding how the Red Wings should handle Howard.

    He has spent his entire career in Detroit and has built a legacy here. And in the more immediate sense, he’s playing good hockey right now. At the same time, if he really could deliver a strong return for his expiring contract, that seems like a pretty significant opportunity for the Red Wings to take advantage of.

    The tempting, best-of-both-worlds answer is that they could simply make the trade now and then re-sign him this offseason — but that is also easier said than done. There’s no predicting how a player will feel after such a big move.

    You also would need a roster spot for him, which taking Allen back would complicate.

    So you can’t go into the deal with that option justifying the whole trade.

    Instead, it would have to be about the prospect — or draft pick — coming back your way. That helps explain why Detroit would have such a seemingly high asking price for the goaltender.

    So who in St. Louis’ prospect pool would be worth that?

    Pronman broke down the Blues’ farm system exhaustively in August, and it’s a good one. He ranked it third in the league.

    He wrote that Thomas has the potential to be a No. 1 center and that Kyrou “can change a shift” with the puck. He also said that 2018 first-round pick Dominik Bokk’s “pure skill is up there with the very best in his draft class.” (Read Corey’s story linked above for full reports).

    Those are naturally some of the players St. Louis will be most inclined to protect, as could be San Antonio Rampage winger Klim Kostin — a 2017 first-rounder.

    This underscores one of the hard realities of trading — it’s hard to get something good without sacrificing, and you can’t force someone to give up a prized asset. A potential trade between these teams may require navigation of both dilemmas to find a deal.

    Red Wings GM Ken Holland has time before the deadline, but if the plan is ultimately to move Howard for the best offer, the most attractive return may come sooner rather than later. As grim as things have looked in places like St. Louis, there are still nearly 60 games to turn things around. That won’t be the case in January and February, when hard-luck would-be contenders may be functionally out of it — and those still in the picture would be getting fewer games out of their trade acquisition.

    Also, consider that the Monday game that set this particular rumor in motion — a 7-5 Columbus win — also featured another notable free-agent-to-be goaltender: the Blue Jackets’ Sergei Bobrovsky. As more time passes, who knows how the goaltending trade market will evolve.

    As always, the whole process comes down to finding a match. And this Howard-Blues talk doesn’t look like a perfect one. Such a trade could leave Detroit with more questions than answers going forward, and it’s unclear what the Blues will actually be willing to part with.

    But, if there’s a prospect Detroit really likes, and St. Louis is motivated enough to add Howard, you can at least see the framework for discussion.
     
  43. DeToxRox

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    I agree with Bultman that the time to deal Howard is now. I just don’t see Ken doing that.
     
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  44. Truman

    Truman Well-Known Member
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    I really dont see a way Blues make a trade for Howard. Unless you guys agree to take Allen back - which is dumb on your end.

    The Banks Parayko has been frustrating as hell this year. He's so damn passive.
     
  45. DeToxRox

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    We have a ton of cap room coming open after this season, so taking Allen isn’t the end of the world if it sweetens the return.
     
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  46. Truman

    Truman Well-Known Member
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    Allen, Kostin, mid round pick for Howard.

    edit - you'd have to take another 1M or so from us. So someone like Bortuzzo or Sundvquist (who has been really good as a 4th liner)
     
  47. DetroitNole

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    We dont really need any more 4th line type forwards
     
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  48. Truman

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    It;s just to make the money work. Kostin is the deal sweetener to take on Allen.
     
  49. DeToxRox

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    Zadina’s agent was on Custance’s podcast today. He was asked if he thought Zadina would play in the WJC. Zadina’s agent is worried Zadina might get bad habits since the WJC is a step down from the AHL in his opinion, so he may stay in GR the entire month.