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Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by ALECOCK, Jul 27, 2018.
Do you think woman should have no reason to fear a man because he doesn’t have a gun?
And sometimes they aren’t effective.
And sometimes a gun is turned on the person that has it.
Your libertarian world view was fueled by your distaste for the government having the legal ability to execute its citizens with a police force.
we've gone over with him many times how merely having a gun in the home makes it a more dangerous environment not less
but his feelings don't care about facts
what's the number of people killed by cops? 1200? We are comparing tiny numbers to minuscule numbers, and arguing that the tiny numbers are bigger.
If you were really concerned about your safety you wouldn't choose to carry a gun.
1,200 to 17 is a pretty big difference.
And boars. Don't forget the boars.
There are 450 Americans a year that are killed by beds.
but how many of those 1200 deserved it
makes you think
that doesn't mean I don't buckle up and drive like an old woman with my kids in the car.
I have this odd ability to be able to separate what is right and what I fear. I'm still not a fan of cops, in general. I think they need to be held accountable when they violate people's rights. None of what I'm saying justifies bad behavior by cops. One innocent death is too many. But I'm not afraid of that. It's wrong, and I am against it, but being killed by a cop isn't keeping me up at night.
1600 people die via staircase every year apparently.
But you are afraid of it. It drove your entire worldview of what you want the country to be. That indicates how powerful a motivation it was to you. You’re saying it’s silly that people should be too afraid to call the cops and yet you’ve created an ideal society in your head where cops wouldn’t even exist.
Whereas ~25 are killed via elevator. Elevator death is an irrational fear and even more irrational now that I know the numbers. Should be a lot more scared of the stairs.
OMG! you are 70 times more likely to be killed by a cop than by lightening. 70!!!!
Aaaaaand your odds of being killed by a cop are .000375% OMG!!!! We're all gonna die! Get in your car and drive away from cops...where your odds of dying in a crash are .406%, or 1082 times more likely than killed by a cop.
Comparing deaths related to household accidents or whatever to the people ostensibly there to protect you is dumb
False. I feel very powerful saying this, but again, I'm able to separate my fear from what I think is right and wrong. It's not something I fear. I'm much more afraid of a car accident than being slaughtered by a cop. And heart disease. And cancer. And drowning. and.....
“OMG!!! Cops are so bad! They can totally just kill you to enforce government policy you don’t agree with! We should just get rid of them and let people provide for their own security!”
- Literally you
I dont think anyone is saying that. I'm just saying I understand a minority being hesitant to calling the cops. It'd be easy for my white ass to sit back and let data allow me to tell a minority to trust the cops, that most are good, but I'm self aware enough to know that I dont have the same life experiences and interactions with cops as they do so I'll shut my ass up and let them do what they feel is best for them to get by.
Police are under no obligation to protect you. They can if they want to, but it's not a requirement.
There is certainly a level of violation of trust when a cop hurts or kills someone innocent. We shoudl hold them even more accountable, not less, than the general public in the same scenarios. So in that sense, yea, it's completely different, a person in a position of power violating your rights is not the same as falling down the stairs.
However, if you are going to be afraid of things that will hurt you, your feelings don't matter. Those stairs will kill you just as dead as a trigger-happy cop. It makes sense to fear things that are more likely to harm you. it's irrational to have a huge fear of being killed by something very unlikely to kill you.
At least 250,000 people die in the U.S. every year from medical errors.
literally? I'm literally LOLing.
And we spend millions trying to get that number down?
Again, were all on similar pages about what needs to happen but the disparate part seems to be the extent of the problem or how highly we prioritize addressing it vs tone policing
Literally. You have a hell of a lot more in common with the Black Lives Matter movement than you think. Both of you are inherently distrustful of police and their motivations and both of you think the police are upholding policies that don’t serve your interests but those of powerful people with more say in what happens in this country than you.
Maybe you’re both right to be as afraid of them as you are.
even if it's irrational? Life experiences have a way of tainting reality. My daughter was stung by a hornet a year ago. Now she flees in fear and screams like a banshee when a fly lands on her. it's irrational. her odds of being stung my a hornet are low, but it happened, so to her, the odds are, well, it's pretty much inevitable. That's what makes it irrational.
Ignoring data in favor of anecdotal evidence is not the basis for sound decision-making.
That's just pretty easy to say coming from the typical TMB background. There are a lot of impoverished people who started dealing drugs because there was no other simple route out of poverty. Or hell, they joined a group that gave them some familial bond and it just so happened to commit crimes. Keeping your nose clean and working at McDonalds making jack shit for all of high school then having no route to attend college without straying isn't something most of us on here would have the discipline to do.
And if you do stray and you have a court appointed lawyer who is just gonna rubberstamp a guilty plea, well now you're in the criminal system database. Meaning police are gonna treat you differently moving forward.
Let's be honest here, we're all fighting over the symptoms and not the disease. A disproportionate amount of poverty in minority communities is the root of the problem.
I guarantee if you look at that 50% of white people that were killed by the police in 2014, most of those people were impoverished.
I agree with dbl's post above. Body cameras. Better training and licensing (along with better ways of blacklisting bad police). It's also good to have a conversation about what we want police to do. The drug war is dumb (editorializing) and has played a huge part in creating the current rift imo.
Prob should pay them better generally though if we want to attract better applicants. Up until 15 years ago policemen were paid dick. A lot better now but when you give a guy with a high school diploma and no other job prospects a gun and some power things won't always go so well.
I am fine with having alot in common with them. I don't like police, and the government that governs least governs best. But the duty of government are still, primarily, the protection of property rights and to adjudicate disputes.
None of that means I fear for my life at the hands of a cop. I'm not sure why you keep missing that very important part of my position.
I don't ignore data.
I also haven't been racially profiled and held against a wall at gun point and told "I should kill every one of the N's right now." bc you were 14 and playing by chasing a friend out of the mall.
My best friend has. How in the fuck am I going to tell him "Na man, data says to trust the cops. Forget what you've experienced and seen with your own eyes, just trust the data. It's cool man.
Sorry, I'm not going to force my views on him. I get what he's coming from.
Also not sure how to implement it but departments should probably place a high priority on police being from/living where they're policing. Lessens the "other" mentality from both sides.
Yea that'll be difficult because there's gonna be a lopsided amount for certain areas.
Because i’ve “known” you longer than this board has existed and I know that the genesis for your political beliefs was the government’s ability to use lethal force against the people via its police departments. All of your arguments against government authority revolve around the government’s ability to kill its citizens. That’s the original sin of our government (all governments?) in your view.
You have a deep deep fear of police power even if you don’t piss yourself at the sight of a beat cop.
I get it too. I understand why my daughter is afraid of anything with wings. I get it. It still does not mean her fears are rational.
It also doesn't mean he's not going to get killed by the cops. People win the lottery every day, if the odds are 1 in a million, that's one person who will beat the odds, good or bad. But we are talking about how likely that is to happen.
That's not true though. That was not the genesis of my beliefs. The whole "anti-police" thing came about later. Originally it was more about policing the world and personal freedoms. Sorry but you are wrong on this one.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I'm not going to sit down and tell him his fear of cops is irrational after what he's gone through. Roles reversed, I'd feel the same way. My privilege has allowed me to not experience those things to the degree that he has so who the fuck am I to tell him what to fear and not fear?
Sigh. “Policing the world” and personal freedoms are both tied to government police power. “Policing the world” even has police in it. You know that. It’s the reason you call taxation a form of theft - because the government collects it with an understood gun to your head.
It’s always been about police.
Yes, like I said, we're all largely on the same page except regarding the racial factor in policing (or maybe that's just Merica who wants to strip it to ECONOMICS EXPLAIN EVERYTHING) or regarding giving a shit about the rhetoric surrounding cops.
I mean, I think it's not helpful to be unnecessarily misleading about the impact of, well, anything, including police. You can't actually have an honest conversation unless you start out with an honest set of assumptions. That's why tone is important.
You don't have to sit down and tell him that, but it also doesn't help to play into his irrational fears, or promote those fears on a message board. It does not help him, personally, to have those irrational fears, does it?
It's like people talking about the murder rate and conflating it with the rate at which people are killed via mass casualty events. Or the difference between the trade deficit and national debt. Or coke vs. pop vs. soda.
Where's our starting point?
Or, like, dog whistles for racism. That's a huge area where tone matters and average people fuck it up all the time without even realizing it.
policing the world in that sense does not mean the same thing. At least not in my mind. Threat of force is a legitimate threat. Police are a legitimate arm of government that needs to be checked very closely. If it escalates and things get out of control, my fears would grow. I'd prefer it not get to that point.
I guess I fear that happening, but I don't fear for my safety right now, today. I don't fear police. I fear police, and government, would be allowed to grow powerful enough that I fear it.
idk I'm not him. I'm just telling you that you sound like an ignorant privileged prick when you say that people that have gone through shit you haven't shouldn't a fear of that thing. Shark bites are rare but I absolutely understand someone that was bit avoiding the ocean for the rest of their lives. Stop viewing everything through your lens and realize people are affected by what they experience and they've experienced things different than you.
Cops in America kill more people, and proportionally people of color, per capita than any other peer country in the world.
We see routinely the disparities in the criminal justice system as a whole, how there are layers of discrimination and oppression carried out via these systems.
I don't find myself to be fit to tell people who have often been victimized or could be victimized for things outside of their control how to feel regarding these subjects when nearly once a week there is a story that fits the research cementing the disparity. It shouldn't be the victims role either to hand hold cops through the process of getting their house in order.
This also sets aside how the whole system is set up to protect itself by limiting data collection/sharing or research into policing except in rare circumstances.
Well you are certainly representing him and his fears. You don't need to be him to know if holding irrational fears is a good or bad thing for him.
You also sound ignorant when you seem to justify irrational fears, don't you? The way I see it, your issue is viewing everything through his tainted lens, not a clear lens. Reality exists independently of your, or his experience. That doesn't make him wrong, but it doesn't change his odds.
and again, you me, him, or all of us could get shot by the cops tonight. it could happen, however unlikely.
ha! something something context....