Gun Control Debate Thread: So we don't trash the Texas Thread

Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by THF, Jun 18, 2015.

  1. Cut68

    Cut68 Well-Known Member

    I'm fine with gun control and it works to an extent, but it won't ever solve the problem because too many illegal guns already exist. If they stopped the legal sale of all guns today, I doubt it would cut gun murders by more than 25%
     
    #101 Cut68, Jun 19, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
  2. theriner69er

    theriner69er Well-Known Member
    Donor
    Cleveland BrownsFlorida State SeminolesDetroit Red Wings

    This is how it begins.....now we are controlling fun.
     
    Cut68 likes this.
  3. Redav

    Redav One big ocean
    Donor

  4. jokewood

    jokewood Biff Poggi superfan
    Donor

    ‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

    ISLA VISTA, CA—In the days following a violent rampage in southern California in which a lone attacker killed seven individuals, including himself, and seriously injured over a dozen others, citizens living in the only country where this kind of mass killing routinely occurs reportedly concluded Tuesday that there was no way to prevent the massacre from taking place. “This was a terrible tragedy, but sometimes these things just happen and there’s nothing anyone can do to stop them,” said North Carolina resident Samuel Wipper, echoing sentiments expressed by tens of millions of individuals who reside in a nation where over half of the world’s deadliest mass shootings have occurred in the past 50 years and whose citizens are 20 times more likely to die of gun violence than those of other developed nations. “It’s a shame, but what can we do? There really wasn’t anything that was going to keep this guy from snapping and killing a lot of people if that’s what he really wanted.” At press time, residents of the only economically advanced nation in the world where roughly two mass shootings have occurred every month for the past five years were referring to themselves and their situation as “helpless.”
     
    Cotton500, Hugo Boss and Redav like this.
  5. High Cotton

    High Cotton Where does this fall in our Christian walk?
    Donor
    Auburn Tigers

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...points-about-guns-and-the-charleston-massacre
    [​IMG]
    Charleston Police Department
    Facebook
    Recommended
    [​IMG]Greece Buys Time From ECB as Tsipras Says Country Will Prevail
    [​IMG]There’s a Pile of Gold in Manhattan. Texas Wants It Back.
    [​IMG]What You Need to Know About the Company That Lost Nearly $19 Billion in 24 Minutes
    [​IMG] Capital Controls for Greece Explained

    Share on FacebookShare on Twitter

    The massacre of nine innocent worshipers at an historic African-American church in Charleston, S.C., raises troubling questions about race relations and firearms violence in the U.S. Here are four preliminary predictions about the gun-control debate we're about to have all over again.

    Nothing will happen on gun control
    Take note of President Obama's reaction on Thursday: equal parts heartfelt grief about racially motivated slaughter and resignation that American politics preclude tougher gun restrictions at the national level.

    “At some point, we, as a country, will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries,” Obama said at the White House. Then he conceded that “in this town”—Washington—even what took place at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church would not be enough to overcome the resistance of gun-rights advocates in Congress. “At some point," he added, "it’s going to be important for Americans to come to grips with it and for us to be able to shift how we think about the issue of gun violence collectively.”


    But that point didn't come after the December 2012 elementary school massacre in Newtown, Conn., and it hasn't come now. Without strong presidential leadership, gun-control proponents will not overcome the National Rifle Association and its allies.

    What may happen is that gun sales will increase
    That's the way our gun politics and culture work these days: 1. Mass shooting leads to discussion of gun control. 2. Gun-control laws do not change much, or at all. 3. Citing the mere possibility of stricter gun control (and egged on by the NRA and its allies), gun owners go out and buy another firearm before any restrictions can be imposed.

    "The gun shops will be crowded this weekend," Richard Feldman, president of the Independent Firearm Owners Association in New Hampshire, predicted. Whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing, he's probably correct. A 2013 surge in gun sales after Newtown has just begun to level off this year. Now we might have a new one.

    The usual gun-control proposals probably wouldn't have much to do with Charleston anyway
    As of this writing, we don't know a lot about how the apparent killer, a 21-year-old racist, obtained his weapon(s). There are news reports that he received a .45 pistol in April as a birthday gift from a relative. There are also reports that he reloaded five times during his spree, suggesting, perhaps, that he used the gift pistol and conventional ammunition magazines, as opposed to a military-style semiautomatic rifle with an oversized magazine.

    Until we learn more, consider: 1. A ban on "assault weapons" (a loose term for large-capacity military-style rifles) wouldn't affect a killer with a handgun. 2. A ban on supersize magazines wouldn't impede a killer able to reload rapidly with conventional magazines. 3. Closing the "gun show loophole" by requiring comprehensive criminal background checks wouldn't prevent a misguided relative from giving a troubled young man a gun for his birthday.

    I happen to favor comprehensive background checks and limits on magazine capacity, because those reforms might deter some criminals and crazy people in some circumstances. But I don't pretend that those steps would have prevented what happened in Charleston—or in Newtown.

    Deranged mass killers present a challenge that politically feasible gun-control laws will not solve
    No rational person proposes to confiscate the 300 million (give or take) firearms already in private hands in the U.S. It just ain't happening. The gun-control provisions within the realm of political feasibility—if not today, then at some point in the future—simply would not stop an alienated young maniac from obtaining a firearm. Not in a society where guns are so widely disseminated and where the Second Amendment, according to the Supreme Court, protects an individual's right to keep a gun. We are too far down the road to waste time talking about mass confiscation.

    So, when it comes to mass murder, we must turn our attention to mental health. When a maladjusted loner begins to talk about killing people—as reportedly was the case in South Carolina and has been the case in similar incidents—relatives, neighbors, "the community" must take action. We must take responsibility for each other, especially for those of us who are sending signals of danger. This may require compromising civil liberties. The alternative, sadly, is the next Newtown, the next Charleston.
     
    Jax Teller and tmbrules like this.
  6. Frank Martin

    Frank Martin tough love makes better posters
    Donor
    South Carolina GamecocksBaltimore OriolesBaltimore RavensLiverpool

    25% is a pretty big number...
     
    Blu Tang Clan, chuckles and Redav like this.
  7. theriner69er

    theriner69er Well-Known Member
    Donor
    Cleveland BrownsFlorida State SeminolesDetroit Red Wings

    The 2013 National Crime Victimize Survey report there were almost exactly 300,000 crimes, including murders, facilitated with a firearm.

    Of those, not more than 5,000 can be shown to have been facilitated with a firearm legally purchased by the offender.

    It should not really come as a huge surprise that people who are willing to engage in things like murder are also very likely to illegally own a gun.


    from a Forbes article: And where did the bad people who did the shooting get most of their guns? Were those gun show “loopholes” responsible? Nope. According to surveys DOJ conducted of state prison inmates during 2004 (the most recent year of data available), only two percent who owned a gun at the time of their offense bought it at either a gun show or flea market. About 10 percent said they purchased their gun from a retail shop or pawnshop, 37 percent obtained it from family or friends, and another 40 percent obtained it from an illegal source.
     
    High Cotton likes this.
  8. Randy Bobandi

    Randy Bobandi Well-Known Member
    Baltimore Ravens

    Sorry to answer a question with a question. But why make it illegal? Here in lovely NJ our state has made the .50 cal semi auto rifle illegal. Would you like to hazard a guess as to how many people have been killed or committed a crime with a semi auto .50 cal rifle in NJ?

    [​IMG]

    Looks scary though.
     
    High Cotton likes this.
  9. CUtigers86

    CUtigers86 Well-Known Member

    Crazy racist pill popper shoots up church, so naturally the millions of people who aren't crazy that own guns to protect their families should lose their's.
     
    killerwvu, tmbrules and Randy Bobandi like this.
  10. Pharoh

    Pharoh king tuttchdown
    South Carolina GamecocksAtlanta BravesLos Angeles LakersTennessee Titans

    SIAP, but read something this morning about this.

    To shorten it up, it basically said:

    -118 million gun owners in America
    -78 "mass murder" incidents in past 30 years(so, .00007% of gun owning population are potential mass murderers)
    -total of 547 people killed in those incidents

    -people killed in drunk driving crashes in 2013: 10,076 (28 people/day)

    -should we ban cars as well? (would save many more lives than banning guns)

    Figured it was worth posting.

    http://allenbwest.com/2015/06/heres-what-the-mainstream-media-wont-tell-you-about-mass-shootings/
     
    AU3kGT likes this.
  11. Frank Martin

    Frank Martin tough love makes better posters
    Donor
    South Carolina GamecocksBaltimore OriolesBaltimore RavensLiverpool

    Owning a gun doesn't make your family safer. So your argument is dumb.
     
    cegtfc and Cornfed Buffalo like this.
  12. High Cotton

    High Cotton Where does this fall in our Christian walk?
    Donor
    Auburn Tigers

    The price of personal liberties, freedom, and living in an open society. I'm gonna get slaughtered for saying it, but its an unfortunate truth.
     
  13. cutig

    cutig My name is Rod, and I like to party
    Donor
    Clemson TigersNebraska CornhuskersCarolina PanthersKansas City Chiefs

    When I was living in Oklahoma I bought my shotgun at a Walmart in Arkansas. It should probably be a little bit harder than walking into a Walmart without a gun, and leaving with one
     
  14. Frank Martin

    Frank Martin tough love makes better posters
    Donor
    South Carolina GamecocksBaltimore OriolesBaltimore RavensLiverpool

    The number of errors in this logic is truly amazing.
     
  15. CUtigers86

    CUtigers86 Well-Known Member

    ha, ok.
     
    Randy Bobandi and High Cotton like this.
  16. High Cotton

    High Cotton Where does this fall in our Christian walk?
    Donor
    Auburn Tigers

    No, you're amazing, watson, do you.
     
  17. Redav

    Redav One big ocean
    Donor

    Statistically, it actually makes you far less safe. People who own guns are 5 times more likely to be killed by a firearm.
     
    The Guglia and watson like this.
  18. CUtigers86

    CUtigers86 Well-Known Member

    Right, families are totally more safe if someone breaks in to their home without a gun.
     
  19. timo

    timo g'day, mate
    Donor
    Penn State Nittany LionsPittsburgh SteelersPittsburgh PenguinsTottenham HotspurPittsburgh Pirates

    The part where they used a knife and killed one guy instead of using a gun and killing 15.
     
    Redav likes this.
  20. Frank Martin

    Frank Martin tough love makes better posters
    Donor
    South Carolina GamecocksBaltimore OriolesBaltimore RavensLiverpool

    If someone breaks into my house, I would prefer that person not have a gun.
     
    Daniel Ocean likes this.
  21. tmbrules

    tmbrules Make America Great Again!
    Donor
    Clemson TigersChicago CubsCincinnati RedsChicago Bears


    I dont really have a strong opinion either way but i dont see any useful purpose for this weapon. So I think you could make an argument for banning it.
     
  22. High Cotton

    High Cotton Where does this fall in our Christian walk?
    Donor
    Auburn Tigers

    :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:
     
    CUtigers86 and THF like this.
  23. tmbrules

    tmbrules Make America Great Again!
    Donor
    Clemson TigersChicago CubsCincinnati RedsChicago Bears

    Lies, damned lies and statistics
     
  24. The Banks

    The Banks TMB's Alaskan
    Donor TMB OG
    Oregon DucksGreen Bay PackersDetroit Red WingsBayern Munich

    I would be able to acquire a fully automatic weapon a hell of a lot easier than some heroin.
     
  25. Merica

    Merica Devine pls stop pointing out my demise. :(
    Donor
    Auburn TigersAtlanta BravesPittsburgh Steelers

    I just think a Mexican standoff is no way to make sure a country's citizen's are "safe."

    The problem with handguns isn't that people are irresponsible with them all the time.

    The problem is that it puts everyone on edge at all times. You never know who has one. The police never know who has one. So they act accordingly because they're scared for their lives when interacting with a civilian.

    It's makes you "feel safe." I get it. But the reality is that your gun is more likely to kill you or your family than anyone trying to do you harm. And if you're carrying it around it's more likely that you use it in a heat of the moment type decision than "stopping the bad guy."

    I'd be fine with hunting rifles being legal. At least it's clear to everyone that you are carrying it. That's my issue with handguns, you never know who has them so you always expect someone "might" have one. That's not a good way to operate as a society at all.
     
    #125 Merica, Jun 19, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
  26. Redav

    Redav One big ocean
    Donor

    One of my many issues is, people make bad decisions. People make really bad decisions in the heat of emotion. I know I have. Now add a gun into that situation.
     
  27. Merica

    Merica Devine pls stop pointing out my demise. :(
    Donor
    Auburn TigersAtlanta BravesPittsburgh Steelers

    Do you think it'd be as easy to find an illegal weapon if you couldn't buy one legally?

    What effect do you think it would have on the illegal weapon's price if a civilian didn't have the option of purchasing one legally?
     
  28. Barves2125

    Barves2125 "Ready to drive the Ferarri" - Reuben Foster
    Donor TMB OG
    Alabama Crimson TideAtlanta BravesManchester CityBirmingham LegionUnited States Men's National Soccer TeamPoker

    A semi-automatic rifle like an AR is still plenty dangerous though. No, it's not fully auto so it's not spitting rounds out constantly but it's still much closer to that than pretty much any other hunting rifle. Someone could probably squeeze a dozen rounds out of an AR before they could fire and reload a bolt-action rifle.
     
    Redav and Merica like this.
  29. Corch

    Corch My son got the Denver Nuggets jeans
    Donor
    Ohio State BuckeyesDenver NuggetsCleveland CavaliersCleveland Indians

    This is a reasonable solution
     
    tmbrules likes this.
  30. CUtigers86

    CUtigers86 Well-Known Member

    No wonder your rebuttal made no sense
     
  31. soulfly

    soulfly Well-Known Member
    Donor
    Seattle MarinersSeattle SeahawksBarcelonaSeattle SupersonicsSeattle SoundersSeattle Kraken

    Stating that anyone on this board can get heroin in the next 24 hours isn't saying it's easy to get?
     
  32. CUtigers86

    CUtigers86 Well-Known Member

    It would probably work a lot like drugs, which has gone great.
     
  33. theriner69er

    theriner69er Well-Known Member
    Donor
    Cleveland BrownsFlorida State SeminolesDetroit Red Wings

    Tell that to Lee Harvey Oswald*

    *allegedly
     
    Redav likes this.
  34. Merica

    Merica Devine pls stop pointing out my demise. :(
    Donor
    Auburn TigersAtlanta BravesPittsburgh Steelers

    How would he have carried it out without handguns being legal? Logistically, explain it to me. Let's assume handguns were made illegal in 2005

    Pressure cooker bomb like the Boston Marathon guys used seems like a good one. But he'd have to google that shit and do some research, which would raise flags. Fertilizer bomb would require the same research. You know this kid would have used the web if he was dumb enough to use an ATM machine.

    He could procure a handgun illegally. Which would have required him to know an illegal arms dealer, which seems to be an incredibly dangerous job that not very many people are going to take on. Could he have even afforded it? Would he know where to find one.

    The most likely case is that his folks never turned in their handgun during the buyback program. So he's using a handgun that hasn't really seen the light of day in 10 years and ammo that is a decade old. Do you think they properly maintained that gun over that time? Would the ammo still work properly? (This is part of why I want all guns illegal. The ammunition aspect)

    He could use a rifle, but the people would have seen it coming at least. He certainly couldn't sit there with them.

    Everyone uses this bullshit "there are too many guns out there/pandora's box" argument, but the fact is that over time less and less functional guns would be available.
     
    Redav likes this.
  35. theriner69er

    theriner69er Well-Known Member
    Donor
    Cleveland BrownsFlorida State SeminolesDetroit Red Wings

    there are lots of things that have been made illegal recently that, as I understand it, are still pretty easy to obtain. I may or may not have heard about someone I may or may not know having a 100 round drum on an AK-47. Now that is illegal, which would make you think it's difficult or impossible to buy, but.....
     
  36. Merica

    Merica Devine pls stop pointing out my demise. :(
    Donor
    Auburn TigersAtlanta BravesPittsburgh Steelers

    :roll: Every person I've ever purchased drugs from is a middle class white boy that's about 3 people removed from the real dealer.

    I promise that dude isn't getting into the illegal arms trade. That's a real stupid comparison.

    On top of the fact that what incentive does this arms dealer even have to not straight up rob you? Who are you gonna run and tell? You obviously don't have a gun to protect yourself.
     
  37. Redav

    Redav One big ocean
    Donor

    The only hurdles there are to gun control are false ones put up by gun people imo
     
    jokewood, watson and Merica like this.
  38. Cornfed Buffalo

    Cornfed Buffalo What's a Narduzzi?
    Donor
    Colorado Buffaloes

  39. Frank Martin

    Frank Martin tough love makes better posters
    Donor
    South Carolina GamecocksBaltimore OriolesBaltimore RavensLiverpool

    Obviously that went over your head.
     
  40. Jax Teller

    Jax Teller Well-Known Member
    Donor
    Alabama Crimson TideAtlanta BravesTennessee TitansNashville PredatorsNashville SC

    Research and red flags sure didn't stop the Boston bombers.

    Also I know of 50 year old blue collar workers that have burners. They aren't really that hard to find. Ask NoleNBlue
     
    NoleNBlue likes this.
  41. Redav

    Redav One big ocean
    Donor

    But how convinced are you that that guy won't construct his own camouflaged metallurgy plant if legal manufacturing of weapons are halted in this country?
     
    watson, Hugo Boss and Merica like this.
  42. Merica

    Merica Devine pls stop pointing out my demise. :(
    Donor
    Auburn TigersAtlanta BravesPittsburgh Steelers

    They aren't hard to find because they are legal in this country. People leave the legal ones lying around in their house and cars and people steal them, then sell them illegally.

    No doubt. I'm not saying it'd be impossible. But it would be a fuckload harder than just asking daddy to buy me a gun.

    That's the point I was making in the other thread regarding dynamite. It was an incredibly common thing at the time. But after its regulation you don't even know how to get your hands on it.

    Okay let's try that instead of the "go find heroine" bit. Go find dynamite. Just go get your hands on some. There's obviously some sort of black market for it.
     
  43. shawnoc

    shawnoc My president is black, my logos are red...
    Donor TMB OG
    Rutgers Scarlet KnightsNew Jersey DevilsNew York Red BullsLos Angeles Angels of Anaheim

    I'm really curious to find out whether or not I could score drugs today in my town...

    If there is a place in town, I'd assume it's on the block that is run down a bit, but I could also try the garden apartments where a lot of chinese live (but I'm not sure I could communicate with them). The dude who edges my lawn looks kinda strung out sometimes, so I'd probably start by asking him if he knows anyone who does drugs or sells them, but he won't come back until Monday and I don't know where he lives.
    A second idea is to ask one of my buddies who are lawyers in town whether they have defended anyone for possession (and lawyers sometimes do drugs themselves, right?)
     
    Merica likes this.
  44. THF

    THF BITE THE NUTS, THUMB IN THE ASS!
    Donor
    Arkansas RazorbacksSan Francisco GiantsOklahoma City ThunderDallas CowboysSan Francisco 49'ersMontreal Impact

    No I am in no way saying its EASY. I am saying with enough effort it can be accomplished. Seriously, with enough time and effort you can get just about anything you want for a price.
     
  45. Redav

    Redav One big ocean
    Donor

    I'd ask the people who look like shit/ask for money/are relatively you but have no teeth. This is probably wrong but i assume most of them are strung out on something.
     
  46. Jax Teller

    Jax Teller Well-Known Member
    Donor
    Alabama Crimson TideAtlanta BravesTennessee TitansNashville PredatorsNashville SC

    For the record I'm all for more stringent back ground checks, waiting periods for any firearm, extensive training required for carry permits, closing the gun show loophole. And we definitely need to improve mental health diagnosis and treatment.

    Unfortunately compromise pretty much doesn't exist in our government anymore. It's all or nothing for either side.
     
    High Cotton likes this.
  47. Jax Teller

    Jax Teller Well-Known Member
    Donor
    Alabama Crimson TideAtlanta BravesTennessee TitansNashville PredatorsNashville SC

    Oh and fuck open carry unless you're on your own property, or out camping/hunting.
     
  48. shawnoc

    shawnoc My president is black, my logos are red...
    Donor TMB OG
    Rutgers Scarlet KnightsNew Jersey DevilsNew York Red BullsLos Angeles Angels of Anaheim

    This is why I thought of the dude who cuts my lawn. He used to come to me over the winter and ask for money since he was having trouble making ends meet without lawns to mow. He's also very skinny and has bad teeth.
     
    Redav likes this.
  49. Redav

    Redav One big ocean
    Donor

    Watching Intervention and Drugs Inc on TV have made me more aware of what these people look like.
     
    shawnoc likes this.
  50. Merica

    Merica Devine pls stop pointing out my demise. :(
    Donor
    Auburn TigersAtlanta BravesPittsburgh Steelers

    No doubt, but a lot of people won't jump through the hurdles. Putting up the hurdles is a huge barrier that most people will not take the time/care to accomplish. Especially people with serious mental issues.

    It's just like saying "well if he didn't have a gun, he'd find another way of killing himself." The fact is that making suicide more difficult causes suicides to drop at an amazing rate.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/struck-living/201012/can-obstacle-prevent-suicide