Joe Rogan Podcast discusion thread

Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by DUCKMOUTH, May 13, 2012.

  1. theriner69er

    theriner69er Well-Known Member
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    low vax rates were claimed to be based on irrational, non-scientific reasons, or political loyalties. Are AA vaccine hesitation based on irrationality? non-scientific reasoning? political loyalties?

    It seems that if an entire group of people (~20M) does not fit that narrative, maybe you should re-examined the narrative. ‍

    Look at education as well. vax rate by those with a college degree is 78%, while the rate among non-college grads is 53%. So it's the uneducated who are the problem
    But not so fast my friend.... when broken down further, we find those with PhDs are actually less likely to be vaccinated than those who didn't graduate high school. So both the most highly educated and least educated seem to be the issue here.

    I've seen numbers based on political affiliation, but the way that's apparently calculated is they look at vax rates by county, then look at how that country voted. So if your county was 60/40 Republican, and has low vax rates, 100% of those non-vaxed are counted as Republican. Seems like a less than ideal way to calculate that.
     
  2. Lyrtch

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    https://www.wnct.com/news/north-car...-claims-about-vaccine-hesitancy-among-ph-d-s/
     
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  3. NCHusker

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    The fact that sometimes I get wet outside because of my neighbor's sprinklers calls into question the existence of rain storms. We should at least ask questions about the narrative of meteorology
     
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  4. theriner69er

    theriner69er Well-Known Member
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  5. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    i mean actual polling is much more scientifically rigid than "facebook survey"

    before even getting into the vaccine reporting correlated with vote shares that you tried to discount, would be curious what confound you think explains why it's not generalizable
     
  6. theriner69er

    theriner69er Well-Known Member
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    yea I didn't realize Carnegie Mellon did their surveys that way. They seemed like a reputable source.

    well 2/3 the country voted in the 2020 election, right? I think that's an immediate issue, if you are looking at 100% of the people for vaccination rates and 33% of those people didn't vote, but attributing the results of your county to 100% of that population.

    And beyond that, if I understand it correctly, it's all or nothing by county. So a county that has 5,000 people and was 51/49 Democrat is no different than a county that has 5,000 people and was 99/1 Democrat. They simply call it a Biden or Trump county based on who won, and all 5,000 people are considered D or R.
     
  7. Lyrtch

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    it is absolutely not all or nothing, its correlated by vote share

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/17/us/vaccine-hesitancy-politics.html

    again, you're welcome to offer up better predictive measures but when opinion polling AND statistical analysis of actual vax rates correlated with vote shares paint the same picture it's hard to deny
     
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  8. theriner69er

    theriner69er Well-Known Member
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    I didn't find a ton of info, but was looking here
    https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/the-red-blue-divide-in-covid-19-vaccination-rates-is-growing/

    I cant se your link
     
  9. Lyrtch

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  10. NCHusker

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    Lmao that study riner posted looks at vaccination rates of different counties and notes a statistical difference between Trump counties and Biden counties. It's not a cumulative poll of vaccination rates by political party. It's comparing rates of the counties based on who they voted for and noting statistically significant differences. How are you this dumb
     
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  11. theriner69er

    theriner69er Well-Known Member
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    It's not terrible, but also not the most accurate, especially if the data is there to be more accurate. Just give me your credentials and we can share the sub
     
  12. CloudBerry

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    Great exchange here and it shows how honest, substantive arguments can be informative and clarifying. Nice change of pace!
     
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  13. theriner69er

    theriner69er Well-Known Member
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    Again, thanks for the response. If you have any time or inclination to respond....

    So when I say we just started trying things, and were using off-label drugs for treatment without any specific clinical trials proving their efficacy or safety in treating covid, I don't mean to challenge your expertise here, but I think that's pretty well documented. From an article in Science News: "To speed the search for treatments, researchers first reached for drugs already approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and in the medicine cabinet for treating other diseases. Most of the proven treatments for COVID-19 started this way, with the exception of remdesivir. That antiviral drug was developed to fight RNA viruses, but hadn’t been approved prior to the pandemic. It is now the only FDA-approved treatment for COVID-19."

    Am I interpreting that wrong? It sounds like doctors, in an urgent rush to treat dying patients, tried off-label drugs that were never tested for covid treatment. Of course, the article goes on to say "Most repurposed drugs haven’t panned out as coronavirus treatments despite some tantalizing hints they might." So to be clear, I'm not suggesting there are miracle cures that we are bypassing because we aren't just "trying stuff", I realize that a huge majority of these drugs will not work as we hope. But a real strategy, especially early on, was to try FDA approved, relatively safe drugs that we had some indication might be effective, despite no actual trials proving any of that in treating covid.

    In a perfect world with lots of time, of course, do all of the research and get definitive answers on efficacy and safety. But it's a delicate balance in a global pandemic to get effective treatments to people without taking time we often do not have to conduct extensive trials.

    https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-covid-19-why-early-treatment-drugs

    On the media and messaging, some of what you are saying is addressed by Brand, and the article he references. The question asked in the article is - what role should patients play in their own treatment? The "issue", I think, is how readily available information is. 100 years ago there was no way to research what the pain in your left lower abdomen was. Today you can find out any and all possible issues and treatments, in 30 seconds. The proliferation of access to information is usually good, but in this case turns every soccer mom into an ER doctor, ready to diagnose and treat any ailment. Pair that with a general distrust of pharmaceutical companies, and sometimes doctors, and it's a recipe for self-medicating.

    Medical advise outside of medical institutions seems like a bad idea. Weather that's Alex Jones telling you to drink frog blood, or CNN telling you that Ivermectin will kill you. While those are not equivalent, the idea that non-medical professionals should not offer medical advise to huge audiences applies to Alex Jones, Joe Rogan, and CNN.
     
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  14. Hoss Bonaventure

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    Regeneron monoclonal treatment was only approved because Trump was dying. The White House called the head of the fda to get them to emergency approve it in order to give it to Trump. It took 3 rounds of it to save his fat orange ass. But the vaccine was rushed out too fast to be trusted. All unvaccinated adults that aren’t medically compromised can go fuck around and find out. Stay out of the hospitals. If you don’t trust preventative medicine don’t go to the hospital to save your ass when you get sick and scared. Eat a tube of horse paste and stay in your own bed and choke on your lungs filling up with fluid the way the good lord intended.
     
    #2164 Hoss Bonaventure, Sep 14, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
  15. pnk$krtcrÿnästÿ

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    Yeah I think that article is a little misleading. I'm sure there were physicians just prescribing shit off label on the outpatient side, but I didn't know any prrsonally in our community. All of the hospitals In around were using remdesivir, CP, whatnot on some sort of research protocol. Early on, these were non-randomized, prospective cohort studies so no one got randomized to a control arm, everyone got the investigational treatment, so it sorta looked from the outside like everyone was just getting the drug cuz YOLO. Like I said, that was the story around here, but I'm p sure that was generally the case throughout the country.
     
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  16. theriner69er

    theriner69er Well-Known Member
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    Interesting. It was my understanding that the entire reason drugs like hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin (and the article says 30 drugs, I'm sure there are many others I don't know) even became "popular" as a treatment was because they were used off label, then showed some anecdotal promise. I remember info would come from random doctors, like one in France, who indicated he saw some success using hydroxychloroquine, and that prompted doctors to start trying it here. I mean, there was no clinical or research indication that hydroxychloroquine was effective against covid, but for a while that was in fact widely used as a treatment in the US, wasn't it?

    again, I'm just googling old articles to try to check my memory, but this article seems to confirm that (while also saying there is no evidence it works...). Maybe thus was not the case in your area, or it wasn't as widely used nationally as reported?

    "Doctors and pharmacists from more than half a dozen large healthcare systems in New York, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Ohio, Washington and California told Reuters they are routinely using hydroxychloroquine on patients hospitalized with COVID-19. At the same time, several said they have seen no evidence that the drug, used for years to treat malaria and autoimmune disorders, has any effect on the virus.

    Use of hydroxychloroquine has soared as the United States has quickly become the epicenter of the pandemic. More than 355,000 people in the United States have tested positive for the novel coronavirus, and more than 10,000 have died. The federal government estimates that as many as 240,000 people in the country may die from the disease before the outbreak is over."

    And this, from a patient, so grain of salt: "“The doctors haven’t concluded what caused my recovery,” Lat said. “The state of coronavirus research is very much ‘throw stuff against a wall and see what sticks’ – but when something does stick, in terms of a good patient outcome, you’re not sure what stuck.” Lat’s doctors were not immediately available to comment on his treatment."

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-without-hard-evidence-it-works-idUSKBN21O2VO
     
  17. pnk$krtcrÿnästÿ

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    Right. That's p much in line with what I'm saying. People were trying to gather as much evidence, even if low quality, as possible early on. So when I read that, I think it's likely that those patients were enrolled in some sort of trial, though not an RCT.

    The earliest buzz about drugs like ivermectin and HCQ was theoretical, from bench science that should decreased viral entry/replication at the cellular level. That's work that goes back decades, and true of many more viruses than just covid. That's why people started picking those off the shelf and trying them first. Although, like I said, I would venture a safe guess that "just trying stuff" USUALLY means is still done according to some sort of research protocol, even if the science is rough. On the patient side, sure it looks like they were just throwing shit at the wall. There's a way to academically throw shit at the wall, and that's by-and-large how it was done.

    All of that in the name of balancing urgency with trying not to lose any and all opportunity to derive some legitimate scientific understanding of clinical effect.
     
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  18. ~ taylor ~

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    He has a position. I assure you.
     
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  19. Lucky24Seven

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    “I choose to not get a shot that has been proven to help reduce the spread and damages that is caused by COVID. BUT, I will eat horse paste and drink bleach that shows anecdotal, off brand uses that still needs to be researched and studied.”
     
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  20. theriner69er

    theriner69er Well-Known Member
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    it's doggy. always doggy
     
  21. MANPOW

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    Do you like your hair pulled too?
     
  22. theriner69er

    theriner69er Well-Known Member
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    Yea, it sounds a little insulting I suppose to say doctors were just throwing shit against the wall and seeing what stuck. But, I think, essentially what that means here is they were making the most educated decisions by trying drugs that showed potential either in theory or testing. I don't think anyone really believes doctors were closing their eyes and injecting people with the first thing they grabbed. And, as the one patient said, when it did work they were often not 100% sure what exactly worked or why. So that adds to the perception that it was a little more willy nilly than it really was.
     
  23. theriner69er

    theriner69er Well-Known Member
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    jokes on you...I'm bald
     
  24. IV

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    Educated guesses are a nicer term for it
     
  25. MANPOW

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    Do you happen to weigh 300 pounds so I can save it with a bra strap joke?
     
  26. pnk$krtcrÿnästÿ

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    Eh, not necessarily insulting. But I think the important idea I'm trying to get across is how crucial it is to get studies done. Just trying new treatments ad hoc, based on theoretical ideas, without some systematic way of determining if what you're trying actually works or not, is essentially the pay day loan of medicine. "Experimental" or "investigational" terminology always freaks people out, but that's how it's done necessarily.
     
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  27. theriner69er

    theriner69er Well-Known Member
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    6'2 189. Not sure what that's called in your community....somewhere between a bear and a twink, I think?
     
  28. HoosDaMan

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    Now he’s telling his audience Biden faked the booster shot — normal stuff.
     
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  29. Eathan Edwards

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  30. HoosDaMan

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  31. Eathan Edwards

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    I've only seen a few clips now - but no idea how anyone came away with that take. I thought Gupta being able to talk more free-form was great even though he was pretty much constantly interrupted by Rogan. He didn't have to adhere to CNN programming nonsense and hasn't let Rogan get away with saying anything incorrect (thus far).
     
  32. Eathan Edwards

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    Welp, just watched a Fox News clip. I can now see what the full news cycle for them will be for the next week.
     
  33. Mr. Bean

    Mr. Bean Well-Known Member

    Gupta looked bad when called on the carpet for the “horse dewormer” smear. Always thought that was gratuitous. Didn’t have much of a retort other than “shouldn’t have done that!”
     
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  34. HoosDaMan

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    And that’s what the anti-vaxx knuckledraggers will cling to and they’ll never hold Joe or any other nut accountable for the misinformation and conspiracies they spread. The fact is people have been taking the horse paste and to my knowledge Joe wasn’t specific when he initially posted his meds. Joe’s also the same guy who said don’t worry about Covid if you’re healthy and soon as he contracted took fucking Regeneron like a bitch.
     
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  35. steamengine

    steamengine I don’t want to press one for English!
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    Cliffs on this horse dewormer smear incident for those of us who don’t consume right wing propaganda, please.
     
  36. DuckKin

    DuckKin Well-Known Member

    CNN said he took horse dewormer, which implies he took the veterinarian approved Ivermectin (the one that has killer or hospitalized idiots). He said he got it from his doctor, which implies he took the human form of ivermectin (which is great for treating humans with parasites, really uses less when treating Covid).
     
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  37. electronic

    electronic It’s satire!
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    Do you have a link to what was actually said? The lack of a direct quote by Rogan makes me real suspicious.
     
  38. Eathan Edwards

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    Realistically what is he going to do there though other than say it was regrettable - drag his network and coworkers?

    I thought he did well in a weird environment without people telling him what to say constantly - hats off to him and I wish more people were willing to engage in civil debate.
     
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  39. Mr. Bean

    Mr. Bean Well-Known Member

    It was like a weeklong staple of CNNs news cycle. Believe it was the last week of august or so when Rohan got it and posted an Instagram story that he was feeling fine and taking ivermectin (among other therapeutics)
     
  40. Eathan Edwards

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    It came off as Gupta clearly knowing and not disagreeing with CNN talking out of their ass with the talking points but also thinking Rogan talked out of his ass. My 2 cents.
     
  41. electronic

    electronic It’s satire!
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    I know that. He’s bitching about what CNN said, but I can’t even figure out who said it, or what was actually said.
     
  42. steamengine

    steamengine I don’t want to press one for English!
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    I’d imagine whichever ivermectin he took it had negative consequences for some doing their own research in his audience.
     
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  43. Eathan Edwards

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    I'd imagine a lot of them took the horse ivermectin if we're being realistic.
     
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  44. DuckKin

    DuckKin Well-Known Member

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  45. electronic

    electronic It’s satire!
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    Thank you. Both the host and whomever made that chyron should have to apologize and face repercussions. It's dumb as shit to accuse him of taking the animal version when there are a billion reasons to criticize him for relying on the human version to treat COVID.
     
  46. Eathan Edwards

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    I think virtually every main headliner said he was taking horse dewormer regularly - Erin Burnett, Jim Acosta, Don Lemon, Cuomo, Anderson Cooper.

    He's claiming he has never been quoted as saying he took the horse version of a drug that does have pretty frequent human use.

    Basically CNN blows and wildly misreported and focused on something with no sourcing/research and Rogan took a drug that no-one in the medical community was advocating for as a valid COVID treatment, at least is my understanding.
     
  47. Hoss Bonaventure

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    I guess on the plus side a bunch of Rogan fans are going to get sick and hopefully die out faster now. They’re going to take it as getting the virus is better than the vaccine. God speed neckbeards.
     
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  48. pnk$krtcrÿnästÿ

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    And go enjoy all the good guests in heaven
     
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  49. FourClover01

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    CNN is the biggest joke. Hats off to Gupta for going on and having a real conversation without a predetermined script or agenda to push.

    We need to see more of this, but it was nice to hear a doctor employed by CNN admit they outright lied.
     
    #2199 FourClover01, Oct 15, 2021 at 8:02 AM
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021 at 8:25 AM
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  50. IV

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    It’s seems so basic to me that anyone could understand that they undermine their correct position with hyperbole, their audience is not the same audience that watches Fox News