Not Lech's 2020 Democratic Candidate Thread

Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by NilesIrish, Mar 4, 2019.

  1. Bo Pelinis

    Bo Pelinis WE GO HARD ON EARTH
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    What sort of examples would you all point to that would fit your criticisms? That is, here's a criticism and here's how it could be better? Honestly curious.
     
  2. DaveGrohl

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    Gonna preface this by saying I like Pete, but...

    A lot of this seems like word salad and ideas without a ton of substance. He addresses the “what” but not the “how”. Maybe that was the point, but I’d like to see the details too.
     
  3. Bo Pelinis

    Bo Pelinis WE GO HARD ON EARTH
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    I see some details in there (maybe not as many as we would like) but he seems to suffer from being unnecessarily verbose and a lot of it gets lost.
     
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  4. AlternativeFactsRule

    AlternativeFactsRule Mmm ... Coconuts
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    If you have a white guy and a black guy in a foot race and just before you fire the starting pistol, you nail the black guy’s feet to the track, you don’t get to pull hose nails out 400 years later and say “everything’s fair now, you’ll catch up.” If you don’t recognize the specific harm done to individuals of the oppressed race and attempt specific solutions to correct that harm, you’re denying what the harm actually is.

    The harm is that white Americans view black Americans as inferior. As harming local property values. As making local schools worse. As being naturally inclined to criminality. As being poor parents. That’s why color blind policies fail to fix the problem - they can’t. It’s also why Joe Biden’s comments about de facto vs de jure segregation were so wrong and out of touch.
     
  5. Dukes

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  6. Cawgs or Gie!

    Cawgs or Gie! The next Jordy Nelson, obviously.
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    Isn't the des Moines register the only reasonably accurate Iowa poll?
     
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  7. bro

    bro Hey Hermano
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    Those top 5 are the only candidates that matter.

    Castro, booker and klobuchar can round out the top 8. Debates/life would be so much better if that were the case
     
  8. PeterGriffin

    PeterGriffin Iced and/or sweet tea is for dirty rednecks.
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  9. steamengine

    steamengine I don’t want to press one for English!
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    Would love to see ROI on time spent in Iowa compared to these poll numbers.
     
  10. NilesIrish

    NilesIrish Not a master fisher but I know bait when I see it
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    Pete, I did not see that coming.

    Probably a trash poll, but woah.
     
  11. bro

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    It’s a trash poll.
     
  12. momux

    momux AFAM Scholar
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    I like Pete a lot and I personally like his plan and presentation. I also acknowledge that he is not nearly as progressive as some of the more vocal participants in this thread would like their candidate to be.

    I am sure I’ll catch heat for this, but I actually prefer a plan like this rather than the specific policy pieces that some other candidates have published. Pete has given a roadmap to the factors that he and his administration would consider and the issues he would work to solve. To me, the issues he’s highlighted and the areas he’s focusing on make sense.

    I think Pete is the favored candidate of the white, millennial, professional class (a segment that Obama also dominated) but I don’t think he has enough breadth to make a real run at the nomination in this cycle.
     
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  13. PeterGriffin

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    C+ on 538, but it's rather new if I'm not mistaken, or at least newly working with Crooked. 538 has only analyzed 7 of their polls.
     
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  14. NilesIrish

    NilesIrish Not a master fisher but I know bait when I see it
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    He kills it with white college educated men. Gotta do better that that overall.
     
  15. steamengine

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    I was speaking to a couple of ex-republican boomer doctors (not at a hipster coffee shop, surprisingly) the other day and they’re all in on young Pete.
     
  16. momux

    momux AFAM Scholar
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    Yeah I actually hesitated with the millennial part of my original post. I think he appeals tremendously to higher educated white men across the age spectrum.
     
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  17. Bo Pelinis

    Bo Pelinis WE GO HARD ON EARTH
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    I think Pete would fare much better in a general than this election cycle's primary, honestly.
     
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  18. bro

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    Agree. I’ll be fairly confident if he was somehow the nominee
     
  19. MORBO!

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    I have major concerns over his ability to get the black vote, but otherwise, yea Pete will do well with most demographics.
     
  20. momux

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    I agree and think that’s probably the reason his broad policy ideas have been marketed with the Frederick Douglass association.
     
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  21. bro

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    That’s not a problem unique to Pete, unfortunately.
     
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  22. NilesIrish

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    This is why he dropped the Douglass plan, he's been fighting this. It is a bit wordy though. But to me it makes sense.
     
  23. MORBO!

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    True. But of the 5 real candidates remaining, he's probably second to last on their list ahead of Kamala.
     
  24. momux

    momux AFAM Scholar
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    I have a question for the Warren supporters in the thread that I’m genuinely curious about.

    I concede that Warrens work in the financial industry has been very good for consumers and America and was disappointed that trump gutted the effectiveness of the CFPB.

    That being said, her decision to target Amazon, Google, and other high growth tech companies as core to her policy seems very misguided. I think of it this way, before 2008 many people had major concerns with the way they were being treated by banks (ridiculous interest rates, high fees that were buried deep in disclosure docs, etc). If we think about who in the broader tech space is similar to that, the obvious answer is the telecom companies who have effectively captured the regulatory body (FCC run by Pai).

    The fact that warren would pick on the companies who have by and large buoyed the American economy and helped consumers (who is complaining about amazon?) and mostly ignored the hated Comcast/att is something I can’t understand.
     
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  25. PeterGriffin

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    I don't understand much of this paragraph, or don't agree. Amazon has ruined small businesses. Why buy a product for $5 more locally (and I have to put pants on and leave the house?) if I can wait two days or sometimes less for Amazon to bring it to my door for cheaper? That, and they are dodging taxes like a motherfucker. So they're bleeding us on both ends.
     
  26. Beeds07

    Beeds07 Bitch, it's Saturday
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    If we don't teach him, how will he learn?
     
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  27. BellottiBold

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    While I have minor quibbles about the way you framed this, I'll say that I also see some of her politicking on this issue as problematic. However, at the end of the day, Warren is someone I trust to make thoughtful and thoroughly researched and considered decisions in any policy space, and I trust that should she actually pursue any changes, there will be a very good argument for them. I know that isn't a satisfying answer, but there it is.
     
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  28. Vito Corleone

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    Yes
     
  29. AlternativeFactsRule

    AlternativeFactsRule Mmm ... Coconuts
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    1.
    https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/9/18257965/elizabeth-warren-break-up-apple-monopoly-antitrust

    2. The notion that breaking up monopolies will hurt the economy is silly. New investment in new competitors will be good for the economy at large.
     
  30. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    framing amazon google and other big tech companies as buoying the economy as opposed to being huge disruptions to democratic institutions, competition in the economy, and on and on kind of gives away where you're coming from on this issue

    also that she hasn't been outspoken about the telecom industry or other industries that need a more aggressive regulator squeeze is weird
     
  31. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    at least within the Dem primary his lane is highly educated whites, especially men

    not saying he wouldn't be able to expand that lane, but most the other candidates have a lot of upside in building a broad coalition with evidence to support it, Petes ability to do that isn't quite there as of yet
     
  32. momux

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    Said another way, why is one of the main planks attacking amazon (who again I think few customers have complaints with) versus attacking the obvious ISP monopoly (which has historic precedent on the railroad component). Especially given the negative perception that most consumers have with their telecom provider.
     
  33. momux

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    also another quick point on this, I don’t think google/amazon/Facebook lobby to nearly the level that the telecoms do. They get involved in a responsive manner when legislation that would hurt them is getting seriously proposed but don’t nearly rise to the level of the capture of government that the telecom have pursued (and won).
     
  34. Homo Erectus

    Homo Erectus Well-Known Member
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    You arent going to get rid off tech giants like Amazon, but they should pay their fare share of taxes. And dont pretend they enjoy creating good paying full time jobs. They are investing a lot of money into automation to cut down the work force as much as possible.
     
  35. Goose

    Goose Hi
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    Don’t waste your time
     
  36. AlternativeFactsRule

    AlternativeFactsRule Mmm ... Coconuts
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    She wants to break up Comcast too. She wants to break up the big banks. She is big on reviving anti-trust prosecutions.
     
  37. momux

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    I’m p bored at work this afternoon.
     
  38. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    most people have lots of questions about amazons impact on the economy, especially as they begin building out their delivery network, the domination of online sales, questions about their use of consumer data, etc

    google even more so with their advertising wing is with hedge funds destroying small media outlets

    angling this as an either or is also really weird, she has been trying to rein telecom power in for years already outside of her presidential run
     
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  39. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    just because you are unable to have substantive conversations doesn't mean others can't
     
  40. Homo Erectus

    Homo Erectus Well-Known Member
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    The FCC is owned by big business and Ajit Pai is a corporate lackey. Nobody pretends that the FCC gives a single fuck about consumers. Its a sad joke at this point.
     
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  41. momux

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    That may be true but she is staunchly in the amazon/Facebook/google lane right now. 82m hits on google for warren amazon versus 3.2m for Comcast warren and the most recent articles about Comcast are from a few years ago.
     
  42. AlternativeFactsRule

    AlternativeFactsRule Mmm ... Coconuts
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    I mean that verge article I linked was from May. The newer stuff is going to be (shockingly) newer and get more attention from the news, but that doesn’t mean she’s abandoned her previous positions. She’s anti-trust.
     
  43. momux

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    I guess my confusion comes from the dynamics of the people. It seems like targeting telecom (which I see as a far bigger threat as a monopoly) would be much more popular. The fact that she elected to pick on amazon instead seems to me to be a signal that telecom is less of a priority.

    Think of it this way - if they were to break up amazon you can describe the broken up companies in terms of their competitors (AWS is going against Microsoft’s azure, the marketplace is going against eBay, the retail arm is going against Walmart).

    Breaking up the telecoms would give many consumers (especially rural) real choice in selection; something we already have in the amazon model (as seen by their competitors)
     
  44. momux

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    Ultimately here’s my thesis on warren - she did a very nice job regulating the financial industry when her entire background was studying consumers harmed by that industry. She has failed to exhibit to me the lateral thinking required to regulate other industries as evidenced by her decision to make amazon the boogeyman rather than Comcast.
     
  45. Goose

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    Yeah, that’s what you’re doing
     
  46. Lyrtch

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    Warren specifically has helped pass legislation for grants to build rural broadband and talks of using the FCC to guarantee affordable rural broadband access. Restoring net neutrality standards, etc. An infrastructure plan that focuses on this also.

    This is an ancient issue regarding telecoms, it seems you might be more upset with the media coverage of the anti-trust legislation as it applies to google/facebook/etc vs this as opposed to her stated goals on it?
     
  47. Tobias

    Tobias dan “the man qb1” jones fan account
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    just from reading along it seems like it’s a pretty reasonable and respectful discussion from both sides but thanks for your riveting input
     
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  48. Pile Driving Miss Daisy

    Pile Driving Miss Daisy It angries up the blood
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    Why not both my dude? Because both are, they very very much are.
     
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  49. momux

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    Perhaps - I just think it’s odd because I feel the base who would be voting for her has much more pent up frustration with the telecoms and that would be a far better rallying call. The fact that she has not attacked them more aggressively gives me pause about her true intentions in that space.
     
  50. Lyrtch

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    i thought this discussion felt familiar