Rivals: 4, 6, 6, 8, and 22 (only signed 14 players) and 17 five stars is a world of difference compared to 11, 11, 11, 13, and 13 with 1 five star.
I read that both teams were close in this thread I think, or maybe a podcast. Yeah that is a big difference.
Stanford boasts better academics and better location (both for nearby talent and weather). Because they’ve had a good football team nearly a decade now, they’re poaching kids that ND would possibly be landing. Stanford getting five 5 star kids is a major pain in the ass.
I can't speak to academics but location is certainly better. That's another reason in my eyes that we should offer all the luxuries of a Bama, or Clemson, or whoever else is putting in lazy rivers.
Okay, feel free to take your fandom to whatever school has the most white trash version of paradise. Lol a lazy river.
I love the pretentiousness as much as anyone but I feel for you if you can't relax and enjoy a nice lazy river.
Yeah, I love how ND is unique, it's why even being a lowly townie I love the place to the degree I do. But at some point you have to come to grips with evolution to become the countries greatest program again, or accept that we are a final 4 type team that is likely going to get wrecked by the top 2. As it stands you can not have both.
There is nothing lowly about townies, except when they start eschewing the things that make the place great. You're as much a part of the Notre Dame community as anybody else, own who we are and stop envying the trappings of other programs. It's possible we aren't even competing with those teams in a decade, if they start paying players.
I know you are joking here, but I love ND. ND sports is just a bonus. I'm just trying to be realistic in what the fight is. I'll love Notre dame at 4 wins or 14 wins a year, nothing will change that, I'm just trying to recognize the uphill fight we currently have.
I’m trying to understand why it is it that you’re often bitching about the state of the program under Kelly when it appears you’re also on board with something like this year basically being the ceiling.
I think the thought is that a better (elite) coach could overcome the issues. I'm not sure I disagree with that notion, I do disagree that "Saban" would come here given the known limitations.
I don't think we are getting what we are paying for. I think most of the limitations are overstated. Some are legit, but not enough to keep us from being a top 5 program.
Why would an elite coach settle for an institution that settles for being a top 5 program because it decides not to be a football school?
Reading between the lines from different places, kelly doesn’t seem like the best recruiter as a hc out there.
Thoros of Beer isnt a troll, he talks in good faith. He just differs from most of us. I also think his internship is designed around being the foil to ND “homers” online.
Even if the limitations are overstated, it at least appears that coaches in general don’t think so. As an elite coach, why head intto a pressure cooker with some handicaps? Why not just head somewhere where it’s easier to succeed right off the bat? If ND can get Urban or Stoops in the next couple of years, that would be amazing, but doesn’t seem likely. I don’t know what Kelly makes. I imagine he probably is overpaid. To get a coach that would have a top 5 team year in and year out would probably require shelling out more than a program like Alabama. ND probably isn’t into doing that. So we get stuck trying to hitch our horses to a coach like Kelly and hope for the best. And honestly, I think we got about the best we could hope for when taking everything into account.
I think Kelly is in the Saban realm of pay. TOB would know, but it sounds like he is paid handsomely for what he does. I agree though that you may need to go above that to attract one of the proven guys, you’d also have to skirt some character stuff.
Kelly has made some awful mistakes, things he probably should’ve been fired for. He’s proved however that you can win at modern ND and win big by doing two things: recruiting consistently and playing smart defense. When Kelly has followed that pattern he’s been above average when not he should’ve been fired. He’s an extremely polarizing figure
If he had started his tenure (2010) like he coached the last two years(recruiting, hires....etc) Nd would have a nc under him. Now I fear it’s too late for him and the next guy will have to finish the job, it will be a critical hire for the ad.
He didn’t know how to recruit to ND, there was no blueprint. He searched for that blueprint for awhile To be fair he’s created the blueprint the last 3 years The five star players should come now that the winning has been established. I’ll be very disappointed if ND does not get a 5 star next cycle
I'm grateful for Kelly and what he has done for ND football. After the debacle that was the late 90s and 00s, I'm not looking forward to the next dead decade when we whiff on a hire or two. ND is not the pinnacle of CFB because we're a school and not a football school. If we uncovered the next Dabo or Saban, that coach would move on to a football school once that opportunity arises because they can achieve at the highest level without the limitations ND presents. I'm completely fine with that reality and embrace it. We're able to compete at a high level while minting quality men that are prepared to succeed at life. I'm annoyed by the feckless criticism leveled at the football program and Kelly specifically. Most ND fans have unrealistic expectations, which is essentially our brand at this point.
Honestly, what do the “football schools” have that we don’t right now? - Better facilities...being worked on - Academic standards...outside of requiring calculus before enrollment, they’re at Holtz-level lows - Athletic dorms...we don’t have these, and may never - Oversigning...were beginning to do this - Coaching pay...near the top in the country for both HC and coordinators We’re getting to the point where ND is actually really close to a “football school”, and have way more advantages going for us than say Clemson did pre-Dabo.
The administration issues at ND are clearly more stringent than at other elite schools, but it's not the reason why you aren't getting 5 stars. 11 of the 16 composite 5 stars in Clemson's previous 4 recruiting classes had offers from ND. Our standards for entry into our school our not on the same level as ND, but we are bringing in elite talent that could qualify at your school if they chose to go to ND. Culture is the main reason why we have been so successful. Dabo has built an infrastructure that goes beyond just playing football. This past semester, we had 66 players with a 3.0 or greater and were recognized by the AFCA as the top academic performing team in the country (3rd team in history to win that award and the national championship in the same year). We don't recruit JUCO players and we've had 2 grad transfers in the past 8 years. Our roster turnover is extremely low because Dabo believes that if you put in the work and effort, you've earned your scholarship. It's a big reason why we only signed 14 in the 2017 class and 17 in the 2018 class. Just some insight into our program, we are not like bama or uga. We have elite talent on our roster but we go about running our program in a different way.
Academic standards (to get in and once you're here) are by far the biggest issue. Lots of kids want high academics and we're competitive there. But most of the elite kids want a pass on academics while they put in their 3 year NFL apprenticeship. I don't want those kids - but they are they kids that put programs over the edge.
Extremely good post. The difference - as it has been since Holtz - is that we don’t have an elite head coach. Kelly is awesome, but a step below. The good news is the program is finally in a place where we realistically may be able to lure one in our next cycle.
This is what I’m getting at with athletic dorms etc. Any coach is going to look at little stuff like that and compare. It depends on who’s in the hiring cycle but that stuff matters. We pay now which is great, we still lack some of the extras. I’m getting more and more sold on Campbell. All that said we are in these place we have been in the modern era.
We really need kelly to go out on top. If he sucks and gets fired, the grey hairs will probably use that as an excuse to clamp down on some of the improvements and try to find a guy who can win he Nd way
Academic standards are only a minor obstacle as far as recruiting goes (it's generally self selecting - those that can't get in wouldn't want to come here anyways), but they have more implications during the time when the kids are on campus. For example, ND makes kids take at least 12 credit hours during fall semesters. Most other schools, including Stanford, allow players to take 9 credit hours in recognition of the time commitments the football season. That's a self-imposed sanction, and I don't really even see the upside for ND. Beyond that, the biggest disadvantage ND has is that it can't rely on having a repeatable pool of top-50 talent to recruit from. As long as the southern "football schools" take care of business on the field, they'll have no shortage of elite recruiting targets every year. A significant percentage of elite recruits just won't have an interest in going to a small catholic school with a bunch of white kids in Indiana. There are enough ND-accessible prospects that aren't born in the SEC tractor-beam, but we seem to be an afterthought for way too many of them and we don't win enough head to head battles for the ones that do give us a look.