Pretty easy to explain. No barrier to entry for the field. At most, you need a Bachelors degree. Unlimited compensation potential. for those two reasons wayyyyyy to many people try it that shouldn’t.
yeah i get that part, I guess i'm just confused how companies employ these people to recruit for not insignificant positions, like if you're trying to recruit people in the 200k-500k range maybe make sure your recruiter doesn't suck
I can’t speak for other companies, but we wouldn’t let a non-Partner work an engagement that high level.
Yea, the argument I read on the original site where I saw the spreadsheet made the argument that these types of spreadsheets were more accurate though. Forget their reasoning. Think these are getting bigger in tech as compared to other fields.
I’ve got an interesting situation now at work to try to navigate. Sorry for the length of post. backstory: I’ve been here a little over five years. I’ve always gotten great performance reviews, put in the mentor program, identified as a “high potential individual” etc. I started in our lowest revenue product line and in the last year was moved over to our highest revenue product line, where I replaced a senior product manager, but they kept me at same pay, same title (PM) as I was before. At the time, the company’s sales were lagging for the 3rd straight year and we were on the verge of layoffs so I didn’t complain. Covid came along and we are one of the fortunate industries that are way up, so now they’re promoting and stuff again. After discussing with my new manager, he basically told me they’ll promote someone next year, but it’s unlikely to be me, and beyond that I need to just stick around for 2-3 more years and hope the company’s success continues enough that they hire more people and it opens more opportunities. If I stay for 3 years just hoping, I’ll have been at one level for 8 years, which is a long time for somebody in that first 1/3 of their career. I really am not interested in that, but on the flip side, I feel somewhat confident that that guidance is solely from him and doesn’t necessarily match management that I’ve work with longer. I am also running the #1 priority project in our company right now, a career-making type of product, that I want to see-through, but we’d be at least 1.5 years away from any sort of success metric on that, which again puts me 7ish years in and just hoping. Making things more complicated, I’m getting some attractive interview requests right now from other companies that seem to offer mode advancement opportunities. Question for the thread: is there any scenario where I can go around my boss asking about the promotion thing, just to see if it’s solely his opinion or that of management that I’m stuck for another 2-3 years, without it becoming a problem? Also, any way to basically have the discussion of “I like this job but am not going to sit here for 8 years in the same role, other companies are offering me better stuff now” without it ruining things? At my last two jobs I didn’t push hard for promotions and when I left, they both offered raises and retention bonuses to stay, basically saying they would’ve done it before if they knew I was looking.
How long has your current boss been there? What's the internal hiring/promotion process like? And do hear out the other interview requests.
he has been with the company 4-5 years, maybe just shorter than me, but was in our overseas division until last year, so he’s only even really known me for like 10 months. Honestly, promotion process in our division has been shitty because the management in our division doesn’t seem to fight for us the way the managers in other departments do. As I type all that out I think it becomes somewhat obvious I’d have better opportunities elsewhere. That said, I do like the company and industry, it’s my home city, and my family along with my wife’s family lives here with all of my son’s grandparents nearby, so it working out here is certainly easiest, I just don’t know if there is any way to push that at this point without burning bridges. we’re also likely going to get large bonuses in about 6 months due to the substantial earnings beat this year, so I feel like I have about as much keeping me here in the short term as I do pulling me away.
We’re also having our second child in about 6 weeks, further complicating things. I guess the play could be to sit tight until after kid and the holidays, maybe wait until the bonus, and then aggressively pursue other options?
Get another offer in hand, then be straight up with your current employer and tell them it's up or out. I'd think a lot of people would be reasonable and understand that you don't want to stagnate at the same position for ~7 years, but at the same time I personally would prefer the fallback option of already having another offer if they are unreasonable
Thanks guys, that’s what I was looking for. I’d honestly rather stay, provided I can get a promotion or at minimum a good raise, I just didn’t know how to navigate that the proper way now that the first discussion with my boss didn’t go how I expected. 100% though, I’d rather move across the country than sit in one spot another 3 years
How open have you been about your concerns in these conversations you’ve had with your manager? If you’ve been at a similar level for 5+ years I definitely think it’s fair game and reasonable to express concerns about lack of promotion opportunity, especially considering they clearly value you having tagged you as a HIPO. Have you been at a static salary the whole time as well, or have they at least sweetened the pot with a market check or something similar? Seems like you have some leverage. I don’t hate the idea of bringing in an external offer but I think that really puts you in a “shit or get off the pot” situation, which with your personal life stuff it doesn’t sound like you’re ready to move. As far as going above your boss, I think that kind of depends how good of a relationship you have with his leadership. If you approach both of them with a consistent message that you feel undervalued, have interest in exploring the market, and have had that conversation with your boss first and give him a chance to discuss with his leadership, then I don’t think that’s a bad thing to discuss it with someone at a higher level that can likely have more influence into making things happen. I’m kind of envisioning that in like a routine touchbass situation, if you have something like that. Sorry for the long winded post, hope that helps.
Thanks, I appreciate the detailed response. I was pretty detailed with my former manager who I was under for 4 years but I was moved to new product group before anything happened, maybe not quite as detailed with the new one yet. I have gotten annual cost of living raises each year, to the tune of 3-4%. Standard through the company is 1-2%, but I got the extra 1-2% due to performance ratings. Due to the baby coming soon, then bonus in March/April, I’m probably not going anywhere until at least that time, so my current train of thought is to basically have the conversation with new boss over again early next year during annual performance reviews. This time be as clear and direct as I can be without threatening to leave or anything like that. If he still doesn’t elevate it or states the same stance, I’d probably try to have a discussion with the next level up, who I do have a decent relationship with.
i think it makes sense to take the least aggressive approach first, bringing up your reasonable concerns. Honestly I’m not sure I see the harm in having that convo earlier than annual review time? IMO id want the bug to be in their ear prior to annual review time in case it’d be easier for them to take care of you as part of that process. If he/she’s a good boss I think it’s fair to express your career aspirations as long as it’s respectful, which I’m sure you’d be. Maybe your industry is different from mine, but that really seems like a long time for someone to basically be at the same level if they’re good. Again give them a shot, what are they going to do, pull you off the project because you are a motivated employee? But yeah at the end of the day an external offer would get you paid if you’re willing to push it.
Ok thanks I may do that. The industry definitely isn’t the issue, this company just doesn’t do any “routine” promotions. They promote when a director or VP pushes for one of their people, so what happens is you get departments that have constant promotions and others that have none. My dept happens to be the latter. In the 5 years I’ve been here, the only promotion among the 6 PMs was promoting the one associate PM to PM. I guess it could be that they just don’t see potential in any of us, but at least in my case that would mean they’re basically just blowing smoke as they’ve directly said “high potential” and given high ratings etc
the squeaky wheel gets the grease. That’s annoying man. The corporate game gets very old, sounds like an odd dynamic for a product area that’s supposed to be a big deal/high visibility. Also wonder if your manager would be reluctant to make noise/rock the boat being newer, but I think if you share feedback that he/she can then share upwards, I don’t see that hurting things. But if you never mention it I don’t think it helps your case. I have made concerns known in the past and feel it’s worked well for me. Good luck sir.
Yea it’s not fun to play the games. I’m just going to have to speak up and make sure they understand I’m serious about it and not going to just let it go. Better for an awkward conversation or two now than having to potentially look at job changes later when I may not even want that.
Makes sense to me from my humble corporate America opinion. Doesn’t necessarily have to be awkward either. If you manage the conversation well I don’t see the downside. Good luck with the job and the fam.
Well I had a pretty long discussion with my boss today, sort of laid it all out there and to his credit, he was very forthcoming and even answered some stuff more in a mentor way not as my boss, but the answers still sucked. basically, an older guy will get the promotion next year, and once that happens, my “old school” company basically won’t add another senior in our department, at least not for years. My boss’s boss is one of those that has been with us for 20 years and thinks nothing of people staying in one role for a decade apparently. So, basically I really am just stuck waiting and hoping somebody leaves to open up a role. Sucks because I have almost no leverage right now since I can’t/won’t move in the short term. Just going to continue working hard on the short term with my eyes open for outside opportunities, but a year from now (or sooner) I’m probably going to be actively searching for something else.
well, that’s not great to hear but I guess it’s at least helpful having that insight. It at least sounds like you’re not miserable there while you decide what you want to do. I’m glad I’ve never worked in an old school place like that which seems to reward people based on tenure vs merit. I’m definitely in the latter, which has been nice as a young person (not sure if 30 is young anymore) actively trying to grow and climb the ladder.
Yea it sucks but I still like the job and would like to complete the project I’m on, though if things stay status quo I’ll definitely be gone before any sales numbers come back on it. Oh well, part of the game I guess
Question on what you guys think of this situation. One of my friends has gone three rounds with a company he loves and has a final interview next week. He got the e-mail today from the recruiter confirming the final round interview, which is four hour long Zoom meetings. Absent-mindedly, he forwarded the e-mail confirmation to his dad and brother just saying "FYI - confirmed the final round with [x] next week..." as they're in the industry and have helped him with his recruiting process. He didn't realize it at the time, but the e-mail came with a meeting invite attached and it looks like he might have forwarded the invite to his dad and brother so the recruiter might get a "Forward Invite" notification to two random people with the same last name who he doesn't know. Should he proactively say something to the recruiter about how he accidentally forward the invite or stay silent? He's obviously freaking out thinking they're going to yank his interview if they see the invite was forwarded, but I told him to stay silent to it and if they do mention something just say it was an accident and I doubt they yank a final round interview from him, and probably nobody will ever know except the junior recruiter who sent the invite. So little/nothing to worry about. Thoughts?
Its a "Recruiting Coordinator" at the Company, so the junior person in the HR department they've been working with (they've also been working with a Senior Recruiter, and this is for a VP level role). Supposedly the invite came from a generic e-mail though (like "[email protected]"), which I don't know if that makes it better (nobody will the forward notice in a generic e-mail box) or worse (somebody has control over that specific box).
99% chance they won't care. But it won't hurt anything if he explains what happened. He was doing it due to his excitement regarding the opportunity, afterall. "By the way, I didn't invite my father and brother to my final interview! They're in the industry, and I wanted to share with them how excited I am to be at this point in the interview process with your company."
Yeah, I’d give a heads up. I assure you it’s not a big deal. And if a company makes it a big deal, I’d probably shy away.
Agree with Duke, not a big deal. Send a short reply to the recruiter and then laugh it off during the interview. Should be fine, especially if they’re four interviews deep already.
Got a verbal offer last week for a promotion for an internal position I'd applied for in August and interviewed for in September. Then this morning got the form email that the position was closed. Tried not to get my hopes up and avoided telling a lot of people etc before getting the written offer, but it still sucks. Apparently they filled up head count and didn't have additional budget for the team I would be moving to. So going to be looking for an external job now, feels good to be rewarded like that.
Fun times. Sounds similar to like when I got a “promotion” at my last job and all it really entailed was more work and a different title.
What's everyone's go-to job hunting site? I feel like LinkedIn has turned into too much of a social media site with too much fluff. Also, is anyone working in a remote/work from home position and how'd you get it? Both the wife and I want to get to the point where we can both work from home. I'm currently working on a Computer Science degree which will help me in the future with that goal. I need a career change here soon.
I use Indeed first then LinkedIn second. For the most part they are all garbage these days because employers will post all of their menial and scam jobs you have to wade thru but at least those two give you the best search and filter options to weed them out as much as possible. Indeed gets the nod at #1 because it has less junk postings and are more likely to be able to do easy apply. Other than that, there is a Facebook group for my city that posts jobs and has some local recruiters posting on there. I also go to the local colleges websites, the hospital system website, and the state employment commission.
It has, and you have to ignore that just to search for jobs. There are recruiters/agencies who have had clients hiring for remote jobs but they add in language about returning to office once things return to normal. Anyway, LinkedIn has been better about posting remote location jobs, along with indeed, ziprecruiter and google's job search results has been good about it as well. Sometimes you have to type in telecommute instead of remote to see other jobs. If you do use ziprecruiter I recommend making a separate email address in case they start sending too many jobs/unrelated work.
Yes. I applied for a position yesterday on a company website and got a response less than 12 hours later!
Guy in the cubicle next to me is peddling a Hunter Biden is a pedophile conspiracy. Reasons for trying to find a new job keep adding up.
LinkedIn is good to get recruiters to swarm you with offers. 95% of IT recruiters are practically worthless, but it's a good way to get effortless interviews to practice. My last 3 jobs were from Indeed.
A new job popped up at a college I used to work at. Clearly qualified for it. It is in the Dean of Students office and one of my friends dating back to college is the Dean of Students. If I can’t at least get an interview for it then my life is a lost cause.
So emailed him to give him a heads up, turns out the person leading the hiring process was my academic advisor for a couple years until I declared a major and got an advisor in my major.
Question off the same situation. After the final interview last week, the recruiter e-mailed him today to set up a conversation to talk tomorrow. I always thought "No's" were over e-mail so is it safe to assume it is a "Yes" or at least a "we need more time but you're looking good." I'd be surprised if they set up a time to talk the next day to just deliver a No, most No's I've gotten have been over e-mail. But I've also only been offered by the Hiring Manager, not the recruiter, so not sure about this one.
Not necessarily. I’ve gotten a no over the phone after a final interview. In a lot of ways, it’s the more humane way to do it after the candidate put in so much time and energy into the process.
Job posting is still listed. School policy has always been you can’t reach out to perspective candidates until after whatever minimum period of time it has to be advertised. And the school is always slow as fuck with the hiring process.
Yeah, maybe I'm overthinking it, but a super busy recruiter setting a time in their calendar on the next day to call someone to reject them seems unlikely to me vs. just calling when they have a break to reject someone if they wanted to just give a couple minute verbal no to be humane. I told him the most likely scenario was they are telling you something about how they still need more time, you're still in the running, we're talking to more candidate but are you interviewing anywhere, etc. with a straight offer or a straight reject being unlikely 2nd or 3rd options.