This is very accurate and just in case it comes up and someone wants to whatabout anything I say in the future. These things are definitely different but I don’t consider either to be acceptable
last page: 200,000 people in the last week have passed through the humanitarian corridor they’ve opened each day to evacuate civilians. Before that they spent 3 weeks telling people to evacuate north Gaza because it was about to become an active war zone. they evacuated hiundress of people from Al-Shida before the raid. It’s a war zone, they’ve been asking people to leave for weeks. Meanwhile there are reports of Hamas putting up roadblocks and specifically telling people they are not allowed to leave because they want dead civilians so that they can garner support.
Ah yes, history....should've factored that in. alright everyone shows over history says it's okay to kill kids and shit
Just make certain you start before Britain decided they could take all of the Palestinians land vs after
I want you to explain your specific reason(s) for one-siding this argument and willingness (eagerness in some instances) to explain away what most see as abhorrent actions that go beyond the horrors of prosecuting war. If that requires an extensive explanation on your part, I’ll certainly read it. I earnestly want to know how you arrived at the conclusions you have about the relevant groups in the Middle East and also what personal experiences or attachments might underlie your viewpoint. On the surface, it certainly seems to be something more than your reading of history of the last century.
The Hamas authority for refugee affairs today told residents in the north of the territory to “remain steadfast in your homes and to stand firm in the face of this disgusting psychological war waged by the occupation”. https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news...ts-to-stay-put-after-israel-orders-evacuation Hamas delayed the evacuation of wounded Palestinian civilians from Gaza by placing its own fighters on border departure lists. A senior official in Joe Biden’s administration said Hamas had repeatedly provided Israel, the United States and Egypt with lists of Palestinians who were wounded and should be allowed to depart – only for it to later emerge during security checks that many of those included were Hamas fighters. “About a third of the wounded Palestinians on the first lists were Hamas fighters,” reported The New York Times. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-n...s-evacuation-lists-stop-wounded-palestinians/ On Saturday, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh said that Palestinians would remain in their homes "even if they are destroyed." Hamas has attempted to block Palestinians from evacuating the northern Gaza Strip, placing roadblocks on evacuation routes designated by the IDF, the IDF Spokesperson's Unit said Saturday. https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-768382 I’ve tried to exclude IDF statements such as Hamas snipers shooting fleeing civilians, I included the road block claim because there’s video and satellite images of it
Illinihockey can you explain how this is acceptable? A white flag, following directions. Still murdered.
This shit isn’t complicated. If hamas (bad guys) tells innocent civilians not to leave and remain steadfast the answer isn’t to drop 6000 bombs on top of children’s heads. It’s not fucking complicated. There is ZERO fucking nuance to one of the most powerful militaries in the world killing 5000 children in an open air prison. You are either against that or you’re a garbage can of a human. The actions of the Israeli government are not only devastating to the people who live in Gaza but are also devastating to Jewish families around the world. Jewish folk have dealt with an uptick in antisemitism over the past few years and now the actions of Israeli government have poured gasoline on the fire of antisemitism and anti Muslim rhetoric. The fucked up part about it is 70% of Israeli people support a ceasefire and do not condone their government’s actions. it’s not complicated. Hamas is bad, Netanyahu and his cronies are the worst people on this planet.
there was a ceasefire, Hamas broke that ceasefire by going house to house and executing civilians. They didn’t fire a bunch of rockets (which they did as well but have been doing that for years), they didn’t attack a military installation or ambush soldiers at a checkpoint, there was no military objective. They wanted a war and now they are getting it. As part of the war they are more than happy to put civilians in the line of fire. My argument is that this is what war looks like in the 20th and 21st centuries. I think people are shocked by it because Hamas can’t wait to post pictures of the dead unlike what has happened in past conflicts. Conflicts over the past 120 years that didn’t include large number of civilian casualties are few and far between. There’s multiple global conflicts going on right now with thousands of civilian deaths. As they find mass graves civilians with their hands bound behind their backs in Russia there’s people in this thread that post in the ukraine thread how ukraine just needs to surrender and give Russia what they want. this probably doesn’t doesn’t answer your question but it was really broad about why I don’t side with Hamas in this conflict
there’s 0 evidence he was shot by an Israeli soldier let alone a 4 year old was targeted. You know who has a huge incentive to kill a 4 year old and then broadcast it? If the IDF says Hamas snipers are shooting civilians it’s dismissed out of hand but anything blaming the IDF for anything is immediately taken as gospel
that is the other side of the conflict. I’ve asked this question before what is to be done if a military or terrorist organization carries out an attack on another nation and then retreats inside of their borders? Is military action forbidden?
You aren't a serious person. People aren't "shocked" because of media coming from conflict, we aren't even shocked at all because this Israeli regime in power has a history of heinous rhetoric. Being against the terrible shit Israel is doing doesn't mean we are "siding" (lol) with Hamas, it just means we don't want to see a genocide. I'm against Shitty AMC Show of innocents on either side of the conflict. The thread seems puzzled as to why you heartily defend Israel's every move and hand wave it away as modern warfare.
you’re right the organization that fires rockets from schools and residential buildings cares about civilians and doesn’t want them to die
you tell me, what should israel do Ghazi Hamad, a member of Hamas's political bureau, praised the brutal attack the group carried out in Israel on October 7 and said if given the opportunity, they would carry out similar assaults repeatedly in the future with the goal of eliminating Israel.
Maybe use their vast MIC and IC to take out that single person? Not take out hundreds of thousands of men, women and children who have nothing to do with that guy's words
Sounds exactly what Irgun and Haganah did in 1948, using their massacre of women and children at Dier Yassin as propaganda to let other Arab settlements know what would happen to them if they didn't leave Israel holds no moral high ground here
again you are comparing apples to oranges and not to be a dick but how do you know what war looks like now? Because you watch it on the news? There are wars being fought this very second that you probably couldn't fathom. again as you stated you didn't really answer his question you deflected towards history and what you perceive to be war.
Everyone in the Israeli government and IDF: we're ethnically cleansing Gaza, these people are never coming back. Kill 'em all. Illinihockey, gaslighting this thread: "if Hamas surrenders everyone can go home and live happily ever after"
hockeyman also highlights a solid point on accident: a cease-fire should be the immediate goal, but should not be the final goal. israel’s apartheid control of palestinian must be ended. also, I was feeling self-conscious about my use of a apartheid, and then I found this report by the UN’s Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs written by the Jewish human rights group B’Tselem entitled, “not a vibrant democracy, this is apartheid” https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/not-vibrant-democracy-apartheid-enarhe
You can look at civilian casualties in conflicts all over the world, that information is easily available.
Most of the casualty counts for recent wars are estimates (which governments - typically the winning side in the war - are either the ones doing the counting or they dispute). What's the total number of dead in Tigray in 2021-22? Gross human rights violations by the Ethiopian government and their Eritrean allies (as well as some of the Tigrayan rebels) with little access to the UN or NGOs or journalists. There's still very few journalists going into Tigray because it's not safe (and few western governments care). How many died? ENDF and Eritrean estimates are around 50,000, while a study by researchers at Ghent University estimate as many as 600,000 dead. Something similar is playing out in Sudan, Myanmar, and DRC at the moment. There's no one to count the bodies. (There's a reason why Israel is deliberately killing journalists!) Last I checked, the death toll in Gaza was something like 11,000 dead, but there's no way of knowing how many bodies are buried in the rubble of those apartments Israel is dropping 2,000 pounds of tritonal on. There's no way to even get to most areas of Gaza to count and I'm guessing a lot of the people whose job it is to count are also dead or wounded. Who knows how many people will die of disease, starvation, treatable illnesses (diabetes, heart disease, medical emergencies, etc.), and suicides brought on because of the war that won't be included in the final total -- Israel and (particularly) the Biden Administration are already trying very hard to dispute any "official" death figures.
Why don’t we compare the civilian/military deaths of the 10/7 attacks to the civilian/hamas attacks that have followed. Hamas in their absolute evil attack still targeted millitary personnel at a MUCH higher rate than the IDF has done in their follow up. Israel claims 30% were soldiers https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/12/world/middleeast/israel-death-toll-hamas-attack.html I’ve seen some say that based on names provided bu Israel that the number could be as high as 55%. For perspective, half of the Gazans killed by November 6 were children. https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...steps-up-ceasefire-calls-rebuffed-2023-11-06/
you’re right there’s no way to count yet Hamas puts out numbers and everyone eats it up. If you ask Hamas no fighters have been killed, it’s 11,000 citizens. Remember when Hamas hit a hospital parking lot with a rocket and within 20 minutes they gave the figure 500 people were dead? Everyone jumped on that number without questioning. The Gazan health ministry is hamas and no one ever questions what they say.