Season 5 - The night is dark and full of Spoilers [book readers thread]

Discussion in 'Game of Thrones (ASOIAF)' started by UA412, Apr 8, 2015.

  1. jltperson

    jltperson Making The Mainboard Great Again
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    Fuck Olly
     
  2. MtOread

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    Assuming the titty walk and Jon's big cliffhanger are included in Sunday's ep, we will have caught up or surpassed all book story lines, correct?
     
  3. NCHusker

    NCHusker We named our yam Pam. It rhymed.
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    It's just like the most basic, dumbed down writing possible. "Some of these people killed my family, so now I hate all of them and refuse to see any logic whatsoever regardless. Also I'm going to be insubordinate and cunty all day long."
     
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  4. Tug

    Tug Well-Known Member
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    You also have to recognize that Olly is supposed to be 12ish
     
  5. NCHusker

    NCHusker We named our yam Pam. It rhymed.
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    I know, I'm just saying from a show perspective, he's not a compelling character. His motivations aren't compelling, he doesn't seem to have any conflict over his beliefs at all, and he's just whiny and butthurt seemingly all the time
     
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  6. UA412

    UA412 Well-Known Member
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    Why add a 12 year old to the wall in the first place?
     
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  7. Pawpride

    Pawpride Clemson

    Olly and his motivations just suck, we are all aware he will be the one who kills Jon. My main issue with Olly is that the foundation/premise of his character sucks.

    In the book, Cotter Pike and the others turn on Jon because he decides to meddle in the affairs to the south. They are old men who have been in the nights watch for a long time, they truly care about the nights watch. Olly doesn't give a fuck, he still has not figured out innocent people die constantly in war. So basically a 12 year old greenhorn is about to stab and betray The Lord commander. I can believe a bunch of veterans turning on Jon, but a little 12 year old is just stupid. That's shitty writing.
     
  8. RoyalShocker

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    You guys are aptosduck level stupid if you can't see how a kid would be blind to reason and logic after watching his parents, family, and village destroyed by savages.

    "I don't understand why he isn't cool with it after Jon explained it all to him!"

    I can't wait to read this thread when Ollivander pulls a flaming sword from King Crow's heart.
     
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  9. GuyOnA_Buffalo

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    Just seems the writers are setting the tone a little much for Olly to kill Jon. If that's what happens, I agree, a little lazy.
     
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  10. CUZ28

    CUZ28 Well-Known Member

    based on casting rumors, it seems like they may go back and do some of the iron islands stuff next season. in which case, that wouldn't be caught up.
    also, the show hasn't shown that bran can see through the trees yet.
     
  11. Biggunz

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    Eh:
    - Pink letter?
    - Dorne, wtf knows
    - I don't think Jon gets (semi)murked next week
    - Sam/Citadel will not be caught up, if anyone cares
    - Iron born way behind
     
  12. NCHusker

    NCHusker We named our yam Pam. It rhymed.
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    Literally nobody said anything even close to this.
     
  13. NCHusker

    NCHusker We named our yam Pam. It rhymed.
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    This is pretty much exactly how I feel
     
  14. Craig Pettis

    Craig Pettis Que serĂ¡ serĂ¡ motherfucker
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    Maybe we're not giving the directors enough credit. Ollie could just be a device they're using to represent that Jon snow knows the NW isn't really behind him, and they're gonna head fake us any have someone else stab Jon. The problem is that aside from like 4 characters we don't know any NW brothers on the show
     
  15. Biggunz

    Biggunz Well-Known Member
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    Ultimate head fake:

    Ser Alliser stabs Jon, Ollie gives Alliser The Death Stare before loosening an arrow into his eye. Ollie turns to Samwell and gives him one of these:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. NCHusker

    NCHusker We named our yam Pam. It rhymed.
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    Nah he'd pry just stop after the death stare
     
  17. RoyalShocker

    RoyalShocker But I don't wanna be a Nazi
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    You "literally" said it yourself you ignoramus.

    "Some of these people killed my family, so now I hate all of them and refuse to see any logic whatsoever regardless. Also I'm going to be insubordinate and cunty all day long."

    AND HAHA you almost word for word posted what I said was stupid:

    "Olly continuing to be all butthurt about it even after Jon explained it to him is annoying. I get it, but it still annoys me."

    You honestly hate to see posting like this. Take the day off and be ready for Sunday.
     
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  18. MtOread

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    Totally forgot about the Euron casting, you both are right on that.
     
  19. zeberdee

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    not sure about how the show will handle it, but the Citadel story is one of the ones I'm most looking forward to in the books. I think there is a lot going on with the Maesters we don't know yet and Marwyn has a ton of potential to reveal that.
     
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  20. Doug

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    I thought Euron was already cast and a part of the show
    [​IMG]

    Or was it this guy...
    [​IMG]
     
  21. ANTWONE

    ANTWONE Hello
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    No that's Daario. Get it right.
     
  22. NCHusker

    NCHusker We named our yam Pam. It rhymed.
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    Lol maybe you should take your own advice. It's says right in my post, RIGHT IN THE PART THAT YOU JUST QUOTED (mind boggling) that I understand why Ollie would be like that. It's just annoying, bad writing

    This board continues to make me shake my d*ng head at how many people just have horrendous reading comprehension. Like, do you even understand the English language at all?
     
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  23. jorge

    jorge Founder of Post ITT if your team sucks
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    [​IMG]
     
  24. coffee

    coffee Remember: Jedi is plural for Jedi
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    I don't disagree with you at all, but just to try my hand at devil's advocate, my guess is it came down to time constraints yet again. For all the bitching that's been done about Olly in this thread, he's taken up very little screen time to form at least a plausible (albeit obvious and unimaginative) motive for killing Jon.

    Developing resentment among a sizable group of veteran Crows due to Jon's decision to march south--a decision he would have to take time to agonize over in the first place before reaching--would take far more screen time.

    Would it have been a better plot, though? Yes. Could they have chosen a better path to Jon's stabbing than this Olly-in-your-face approach, while still cutting down the time needed to get there? I'd like to think so, but the story arcs can't all be winners I guess.
     
  25. Vito Corleone

    Vito Corleone deluxe member
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    I think it would be great writing to have Ollie try and kill Jon, only to be stopped by someone like Sam, and then have someone else kill Jon after everyone thinks Jon has made it out alive
     
  26. NCHusker

    NCHusker We named our yam Pam. It rhymed.
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    Can't disagree with any of this.

    Really all our gripes with the show come down to them having to cut down the story so much that it leads to plot holes, poor story development, characters doing crazy things that seem to go against their own personalities/morals, and just shit that doesn't make sense. It sucks that it's happening so much but it might just be unavoidable given the scope of the actual story and how limited the show is in comparison
     
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  27. Cawgs or Gie!

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  28. jorge

    jorge Founder of Post ITT if your team sucks
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    I don't think Olly is alone in this resentment. He's supposed to be representing the resentment within all of the nights watch. I felt like that was conveyed pretty well, even a little heavy handed at times.
     
  29. Imurhuckleberry

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    Not the place y'all and not important. There's got to be a better place for comparing shitty Father's in popular fiction.
     
  30. Cawgs or Gie!

    Cawgs or Gie! The next Jordy Nelson, obviously.
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  31. Thoros of Beer

    Thoros of Beer Academy Award-Winning Actor, Tim Allen
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    in book three isn't daario in mereen while euron is on pyke after balon gets thrown off the bridge?
     
  32. Pharoh

    Pharoh king tuttchdown
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    Of all the theories I've read about, I can usually put on my tin foil hat and believe it, but Daario = Euron is one that makes zero sense to me.
     
  33. scottblue

    scottblue Well-Known Member
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    So Georege gave the order to the show runners to have Shireen burnt this season. I guess that settles that debate. Shitty.
     
  34. lastsonofkrypton

    lastsonofkrypton Man of Steel, Kal-el, Clark Kent,
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    this, i'm very easy to convince with theories because they're fun but this just seems like poppycock to me.
     
  35. NCHusker

    NCHusker We named our yam Pam. It rhymed.
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    Honestly though, the DWD story arc for Jon is pretty masterfully constructed by GRRM. He finds himself with all this power and seems to have more foresight than anyone else in Westeros. He makes a lot of great, yet unpopular decisions to the great benefit of the Watch. Brokering peace with the Wildlings is unprecedented, and turning a major enemy into a huge asset was a masterstroke. At the time he's stabbed, the NW is in an immensely better position than it was when he took over.

    At the same time GRRM is putting him in all these situations where he's having to pick between something morally right and what's actually good for the NW. Borrowing heavily from the Meereenese Blot (a fantastic series of essays on the books, if you haven't read them you really should), three times he makes decisions that are morally just, good decisions that, nevertheless, put the NW at risk and directly hurt it (Karstark girl, Hardhome rescue mission, pink letter reaction). And we get all of it from Jon's perspective, so we get all of his reasoning, justification, and thought processes. This makes it hard at first to see how terrifying some of these things must be for a regular NW member.

    I mean in his time as Lord Commander, Jon has done these things:
    1) Got pretty buddy-buddy with a rebel to the throne who, at the time he got to the Wall, had almost 0 chance to win. Granted, Stannis put Jon in a no-win situation by staying there and asking Jon for so much, but if I'm in the NW, I'm terrified about what the Lannisters will do when Stannis is defeated, which seems like the most likely outcome logically.
    2) Interfered with a wedding brokered by the current Warden of the North
    3) Sent NW men and ships on a fools errand to save a bunch of Wildling women, children, and elderly who had very little to contribute to the Watch. In winter. With the Others closing in. Huge risk, low reward from an asset standpoint
    4) Was about to desert and was using his power and influence to try to get others to join him. To attack Winterfell and steal the bride of the Warden of the North's heir.

    As many good things as Jon did for the Watch, a lot of people had to be terrified at what would happen to them if Jon continued on as he was. The NW has no protection from the South, and Jon gave the Boltons and Lannisters more than enough reasons to want to attack the Watch for sticking his nose into things the NW should never be part of. What's so awesome about the story is how, even though we see Jon do these things, GRRM has made it so they're all just and right choices to make to protect those who need it. So we're still blind-sided when the NW stabs him.

    Sorry for the tangent, I just love the Jon Snow as Lord Commander arc so much. It's a brilliant piece of storytelling.
     
  36. Pharoh

    Pharoh king tuttchdown
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    Funny comment I read on reddit regarding the theory:

    Daario=Euron: born amongst tin and foil
     
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  37. Imurhuckleberry

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    That they showed Selyse as the one with buyers regret goes against my entire understanding of her character. Blew up my suspension of disbelief completely.
     
  38. AptosDuck

    AptosDuck Pedantic Hausfrau
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    Liked for the shoutout insult, not the straw man shitty argument
     
  39. Imurhuckleberry

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    She's got that Drogon smile.
     
  40. OhioHoo

    OhioHoo Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
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    I know for a fact Stannis gets what's coming to him:

    stannis.jpg
     
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  41. scottblue

    scottblue Well-Known Member
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    She has dead fetuses mounted all over her chambers, I was surprised in the moment but it kind of makes sense.
     
  42. GuyOnA_Buffalo

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    at least she can add an urn to her collection.
     
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  43. Ace Boogie

    Ace Boogie Top Lad
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    It is just poor story telling though. Any person who isn't mildly retarded should be able to realize it made no sense whatsoever. I don't mind them altering things slightly now and then to make it more exciting for television but that was beyond dumb.
     
  44. Aaron Hernandez

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    Wow that child burning really fucked some of you guys up. Was a rough scene but "crying all night" seems a tad unstable.
     
  45. Marv

    Marv Suck Brick Kid
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    yeah they just needed 1 line to say storms got so bad they could land at east watch and had to get off in front of the wall.
     
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  46. jltperson

    jltperson Making The Mainboard Great Again
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    Someone said they were crying all night?

    Yikes
     
  47. Lawnole23

    Lawnole23 FSU Seminoles 2020 National Champions
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    People just pile on the show To do it at this point No one bitches about lazy writing when the wildlings and Jon could have just sailed around the wall instead of trying the super dangerous act of climbing the wall.

    Sailing around the wall is boring to watch and standing at the wall has much better effect.

    Just bc the wildlings could have done something different doesn't mean it's lazy writing. We could go through the books page by page and point out non stop lazy writing throughout the books by this standard.

    This is a fictional universe. Not everything is going to make sense. Things are done for effect. Not every little detail needs to make sense or have a reasonable explanation.
     
    #2847 Lawnole23, Jun 9, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2015
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  48. jltperson

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    It's definitely lazy writing

    GRRM is far from perfect, but he does put a lot of effort into getting little details right, particularly in the later books.

    I don't think the wall thing is that huge of a deal, there are much worse examples of lazy writing in the show than that. Still lazy though
     
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  49. jltperson

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    non lazy writing would be "we want this to happen, but it doesn't make sense, how can we justify this in a way that makes sense for the characters involved"

    Lazy writing is "we want this to happen, but it doesn't make sense...fuck it, we are doing it anyway"
     
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  50. DelapThrows

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    Right. The lazy writing is pretending Littlefinger is stupid and doesn't know about Ramsey.
     
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