Snobby pool thread

Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by lechnerd, Jun 25, 2018.

  1. Zack Zedalis

    Zack Zedalis Silver Foxin'
    Florida GatorsTampa Bay Buccaneers

    I make money off your pool currently, but that has little to do with what you are saying. I’m glad you read some things on the web though & hope you enjoy your pool.
    lechnerd do not maintain your FAC at 8ppm. Feel free to hit me up when a.tramp & I are together next if you have more chem questions.
     
    BayouMafia and lechnerd like this.
  2. Zack Zedalis

    Zack Zedalis Silver Foxin'
    Florida GatorsTampa Bay Buccaneers

    Or, just spitballing here, you’d have your TA in range so that the PH bounce is actually stabilized. One of these things buffers the other and it’s not the one you are suggesting.
    I understand that you may have an issue with your local pool professionals, but they aren’t all out to take your money. If you find yourself in need of some real time service in your area just let me know & I’ll find the best company in your neck of the woods
     
    BayouMafia and lechnerd like this.
  3. pperc15

    pperc15 Well-Known Member
    Donor

    Explain what I said was wrong. Seriously. Please explain the chemistry to me. Also, explain to Lechnerd why he shouldn't maintain his FAC in the 6ppm - 8ppm range. Do you know how much his FC drops during the day?
     
    lechnerd likes this.
  4. pperc15

    pperc15 Well-Known Member
    Donor

    You're right (shock, look I admitted you are right!). I typed "as your" and should have typed "with your". TA buffers pH. I'm aware. His TA isn't so far out of range that he HAS TO to dump stuff in it to raise it. He could easily just overshoot his target as well. And perhaps his fill water is higher in TA so as evaporation occurs it'll naturally come up. It's easy to overshoot your number. So, maybe he should add a little bit of baking soda and then retest. Have you provided him the calculators he needs to figure out how much to add?

    I fired my local pool professionals because they weren't professional. And showing up once a week for 10 minutes and charging $85 a visit is a scam. You can't properly take care of a pool like that.

    Why haven't you told lechnerd to stop putting trichlor into a pool? I know that you know that's a bad idea long term and he'll end up with a CYA level that will require him to replace a significant amount of water.

    There isn't anything I can't do myself for my pool, save mechanical issues like a pump breaking down. Same with everyone else here, unless they don't have the time or want to be bothered. It's about 5-10 minutes a day.
     
    #704 pperc15, Jun 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
    lechnerd likes this.
  5. shawnoc

    shawnoc My president is black, my logos are red...
    TMB OG
    New Jersey DevilsRutgers Scarlet KnightsNew York Red Bulls

    Need to change the sand in my filters. Anyone ever gone with anything other than sand?
    I’d like to hear from
    Anyone who has used glass, poly puffs, etc.
     
  6. pperc15

    pperc15 Well-Known Member
    Donor

    https://chlorine.americanchemistry....Library/Chloramines-Understanding-Pool-Smell/

     
    lechnerd likes this.
  7. pperc15

    pperc15 Well-Known Member
    Donor

    You don't have to be a chemist to understand this stuff (my formal science training is in biology so perhaps a bit easier for me), but the information is out there for you to find and a lot of what the "pool stores" tell you isn't grounded in science.
     
    lechnerd likes this.
  8. Nole96SC

    Nole96SC Old Member
    Donor TMB OG
    Florida State SeminolesSneakers

    The people that put in my pool and have been installing and maintaining pools for 30 years haven't steered me wrong yet. Nor have they tried to sell me anything I don't need. In fact they almost go out of their way to tell you "you don't need xx just do xx". They aren't scientists but they seem to know what theyre doing.
     
  9. Zack Zedalis

    Zack Zedalis Silver Foxin'
    Florida GatorsTampa Bay Buccaneers

    It’s all grounded in science from an industry training standpoint. Good lord, man, I hope you don’t live by WebMD too.
     
    cdaysker, a.tramp, BayouMafia and 2 others like this.
  10. Arkadin

    Arkadin inefficiently efficent and unclearly clear
    Donor

    Everyone knows you're just a grifter
     
    a.tramp, dump and Zack Zedalis like this.
  11. Zack Zedalis

    Zack Zedalis Silver Foxin'
    Florida GatorsTampa Bay Buccaneers

    I should fire all of our chemist & stop all work with the CDC too
     
    HatterasJack, cdaysker, Pharm and 4 others like this.
  12. MoJo

    MoJo It bees that way sometimes...
    Donor
    Southern Mississippi Golden EaglesNew Orleans Saints

    6-8 ppm for prolonged periods is high, 1 ppm is total kill for almost all microbials.
     
  13. pperc15

    pperc15 Well-Known Member
    Donor

    At 0 CYA or at 50 CYA?
     
  14. pperc15

    pperc15 Well-Known Member
    Donor

    Again, what have I said that’s incorrect on the science? Showing up once a week to take care of a pool requires methods that aren’t needed if you can take care of your pool daily. Do you agree with that? Industry training is designed to allow the pool maintenance industry to take care of a lot of pools very quickly once a week. That doesn’t mean it’s the best thing for the pool or the equipment.
     
    #714 pperc15, Jun 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  15. pperc15

    pperc15 Well-Known Member
    Donor

    Trichlor adds cya and lowers pH because it’s very acidic. Why would you recommend that be used instead of adding the proper liquid chlorine bleach each day if his CYA is already 50?
     
  16. Zack Zedalis

    Zack Zedalis Silver Foxin'
    Florida GatorsTampa Bay Buccaneers

    Liquid bleach is terrible for your surface, but I’m sure you researched that already and were just throwing it out there. CYA is also terrible for your surface at elevated levels & can create chlorine lock which is why you are asked to drain to lower. There are no chems that can created a repeatable level of cya dissolution, but there is a product that would like you to believe otherwise on the market now.
    Shocking or super chlorinating with cal hypo is the best route to go in most situations as it is not stabilized and will deliver a high FAC with strengths up to 78%.
    Should we continue?
     
  17. MoJo

    MoJo It bees that way sometimes...
    Donor
    Southern Mississippi Golden EaglesNew Orleans Saints

    For sure at 0 not sure at 50. If you can read it does it mean it's available? If so, 1ppm =1ppm regardless of level.
     
  18. pperc15

    pperc15 Well-Known Member
    Donor

    I do not believe that’s the case. CDC recommends at least 2ppm if you’re using cya but doesn’t comment on the cya level. Actual data I’ve seen suggests there is an inverse relationship.



    Based on this data you are absolutely correct regarding 0 CYA. However, it’s impractical to have no CYA in an outdoor pool that gets UV on it all day. Unless you can test multiple times a day and be adding chlorine all day.
     
  19. Degausser

    Degausser Well-Hung Member
    Donor
    Georgia BulldogsAtlanta Braves

    I like it when you get sassy :gfa:
     
  20. a.tramp

    a.tramp Insubordinate and churlish
    Donor
    Kansas State WildcatsTexas Rangers

    EVERYONE SHUT THE FUCK UP UNTIL I CAN FIGURE OUT JUST EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON IN HERE
     
  21. pperc15

    pperc15 Well-Known Member
    Donor

    Thank you for engaging in this. Seriously, I’m learning still and it’s fascinating to push through the fabrications and half truths based on the various incentives. So, seriously, thanks. Also, happy to take you up on your offer to let me know who the best pool company is in the Montgomery County Philadelphia area. Hope it isn’t the one I’ve fired - leaving my filter on rinse for 30 minutes until I caught the pool below the skimmers with the pump running was plenty of reason for me to say bye bye. The kid was barely trained. How could I believe he could measure chemistry - especially just using an OTO color match test.

    I want to address the high levels of chlorine and pool surface in another post. Before I do, can you share why you believe that’s true? Have you seen some data suggested that’s true for all sorts of surfaces - vinyl liner, plaster, fiberglass, pebble? Obviously the chemistry of each of these surfaces is different. So, can you explain a bit more the chemistry behind a high FC damaging the surface of the pool and how high that FC needs to be to cause that damage?

    “Chlorine lock” is a fancy pool store way of saying that you have too much CYA in the pool. But how did all that CYA get there? It’s not in your fill water. But it is in that trichlor that lechnerd is adding to his pool. Eventually, if he keeps using it, he’ll end up with “chlorine lock” which shouldn’t ever happen in the first place. Right?

    If I had a gallon of 73% Cal Hypo to a pool with 25k gallons in it, what’s the FC increased by? My calculation suggests it raises the pool by 28 FC. Isn’t that much higher than the 6-8 I mentioned that you suggested would damage the pool surface? Or is that only prolonged periods?

    So, I’m still curious - why shock at all? Is that because most peoples FC drops below recommended levels during the week and therefore algae starts to take hold? So shocking once a week is the easy thing to do - but isn’t that gallon bucket expensive? And do those super high FC levels have other side effects on your pool equipment over time?

    That much Cal Hypo each week would add 20.0 ppm to your CH. Depending on the surface isn’t a higher calcium hardness also a major problem? You’ll cause scaling and cloudiness if the levels get too high and the only way to fix - yep, drain the water and refill. So in about 4 months (12 weeks) you’ll add 240ppm calcium to your pool. Maybe my gallon assumption was wrong? How much shock do you recommend adding once a week?

    Repeatable level of CYA dissolution? Do you mean products that remove CYA from the pool? I agree - totally bogus.

    This is great stuff - thanks for engaging on the specifics!

    edit: http://www.poolhelpforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5231 This post from 2007 was a helpful explanation for me.
     
    #721 pperc15, Jun 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
    HuskerInMiami and dump like this.
  22. Arkadin

    Arkadin inefficiently efficent and unclearly clear
    Donor

    Someone's chlorine levels are obviously too high

    Or maybe too low idk
     
  23. Zack Zedalis

    Zack Zedalis Silver Foxin'
    Florida GatorsTampa Bay Buccaneers

    I know you do & it motivates me
     
  24. stringmusic24

    stringmusic24 Iconoclast, Aspiring Misanthrope

    Forget all these other cunts, I need your expertise.
     
    dump and a.tramp like this.
  25. dump

    dump I’m 100% That Bitch
    Donor
    DemocratAntifaAnarchy

    huh I thought it was Jake Barnes this entire time
     
    Tiffin and Degausser like this.
  26. stringmusic24

    stringmusic24 Iconoclast, Aspiring Misanthrope

    I don't know this Jake cat, but he's clearly a man of impeccable taste.
     
    dump likes this.
  27. Jake Barnes

    Jake Barnes LOOK AT THAT LASER!!!
    Donor
    Alabama Crimson TideAtlanta BravesAtlanta Falcons

    Indeed
     
  28. a.tramp

    a.tramp Insubordinate and churlish
    Donor
    Kansas State WildcatsTexas Rangers

    So you walk up to a pool and you “smell chlorine” and think “this shit is over-chlorinated.” False, it is under-chlorinated or not properly shocked. That is body oil and sweat and pee interacting and using up the chlorine and there is not actually enough chlorine to disinfect.

    You can either A) properly shock the pool to help it get back on track or B) always keep a sky high chlorine level.

    As an equipment specialists, I advise you against the latter but secretly hope you do it. Replacing a 1 year old heater with a heat exchanger that has been basically chemically melted pays me just as well as replacing a 10 year old heater. And it is actually easier because I won’t have to do any plumbing for the job, just haul off a $2000-$12000 sprinkler depending on what size & efficiency it is.
     
    BayouMafia, bigred77 and dump like this.
  29. 941Gator

    941Gator TMB's resident beach bum
    Staff Donor
    Florida Gators

    TMB Headline: User Jake Scott Found Dead Floating in Pool. User Stringmusic24 Last Person Seen on Pool Deck.
     
  30. pperc15

    pperc15 Well-Known Member
    Donor

    Can you specify what sky high FC is that will damage a heater in 1 year? And is it the chlorine doing the damage or low pH as liquid chlorine is acidic (and people aren't checking their pH often enough)? People who also dump chlorine into their skimmers instead of the deep end return I'm sure are also causing a ton of damage to their equipment as well by concentrating that chlorine even more right at the equipment.
     
    dump likes this.
  31. Bankz

    Bankz I'm a sick guy
    Donor TMB OG
    Penn State Nittany LionsChicago CubsChicago BullsChicago BearsChicago BlackhawksWWEMilanNXTAEW

    I never thought I would be so interested in a conversation about pool chemicals...
     
  32. dump

    dump I’m 100% That Bitch
    Donor
    DemocratAntifaAnarchy

    how dare you confuse poorly educated Jake Scott with esteemed and highly educated user Jake Barnes
     
  33. a.tramp

    a.tramp Insubordinate and churlish
    Donor
    Kansas State WildcatsTexas Rangers

    My apologies, I should have tagged lechnerd as my post was meant to be addressed to him. You are free to do whatever you like.

    Here in Texas where the water is kept in the pools year round and the equipment stays fully operational the entire time, no pool equipment will last long when the recommended chlorine level is doubled-tripled. It does not matter if the pH is 6.0 or 10.0.
     
    dump likes this.
  34. Jake Scott

    Jake Scott Fuck chicken
    Staff Donor

    Site corrected it to best Jake :smug:
     
    dump likes this.
  35. stringmusic24

    stringmusic24 Iconoclast, Aspiring Misanthrope

    I'd like to take this opportunity to invite both Jakes to a pool party at my place.
     
  36. Arkadin

    Arkadin inefficiently efficent and unclearly clear
    Donor

    Can I come
     
    Zack Zedalis, dump and stringmusic24 like this.
  37. stringmusic24

    stringmusic24 Iconoclast, Aspiring Misanthrope

    Is your name Jake?
     
    Tiffin, dump, a.tramp and 1 other person like this.
  38. Arkadin

    Arkadin inefficiently efficent and unclearly clear
    Donor

    Yacob, parents are from Belarus
     
  39. pperc15

    pperc15 Well-Known Member
    Donor

    Discussion over I guess. Oh well.
     
  40. a.tramp

    a.tramp Insubordinate and churlish
    Donor
    Kansas State WildcatsTexas Rangers

    Equipment here gets abused. 5 months straight with temps of 90+ and regularl runs of triple digit temps for 1-3 weeks. Add to that pool water temps of up to 96 degrees, without a heater. If you think that you have pool chemistry figured out for your seasonal pool than that is great. The pools in Texas get abused harder than any other pools in the country and the stress the equipment takes added to high chlorine is ridiculous.

    I regularly am sub contracted by companies that believe in the high chlorine model. It sucks because they won’t stop overdosing but it is awesome because I never run out of work with them. It really sucks for the home/pool owner though.

    And before you bring up pH again I will clear that up. In Dallas, the pH is never low due to all the shit that is constantly in pools so it is not “low pH” that is damaging equipment.
     
  41. stringmusic24

    stringmusic24 Iconoclast, Aspiring Misanthrope

    In my early teens I watched a documentary on Poland. You and I should have a lot to talk about. Your invite is in the mail.
     
    dump and Arkadin like this.
  42. Arkadin

    Arkadin inefficiently efficent and unclearly clear
    Donor

    This is wonderful news, thank you comrade
     
  43. pperc15

    pperc15 Well-Known Member
    Donor

    pH in the water vs. dumping pucks in the skimmer may create lower pH in the equipment vs. the pool is all I was possibly thinking but I understand your position and why you believe it is the high chlorine doing that damage to the equipment vs. the pH. Thank you.
     
  44. pperc15

    pperc15 Well-Known Member
    Donor

    Here is at least a compelling article by Robert Lowry on the relationship between FC and CYA arguing for the industry to rethink the recommended FC levels: https://aquamagazine.com/service/new-thinking-chlorine-cyanuric-acid-in-balance.html

    lechnerd - this is arguing that you should stop using trichlor now.

    His brief biography:

    "During the last 44 years Mr. Lowry has co-owned two chemical manufacturing companies - Leisure Time Chemical and Robarb - and a publishing company - Service Industry News. He was technical director for the world's largest retailer of pool and spa supplies, Leslie´s, was technology officer for an ozone manufacturer, DEL Ozone and consultant to numerous corporations from DuPont, Olin, Nalco, Albemarle and FMC to small startup companies looking to enter the pool and spa industry.

    He has written 17 pool and spa water chemistry books, published more than 175 technical articles, written 29 "white" papers, written a monthly column for a major trade publication, given more than 500 water chemistry seminars and has certified more than 2,500 students to be CPOs. In addition, he has formulated, invented, developed and introduced more than 111 new chemical products into the pool and spa industry. He has recently revised the IPSSA Basic Training Manual and the IPSSA Intermediate Training Manual and has developed 3 iPhone and Smartphone Apps. He is one of the leading chemical experts in the pool industry. "
     
  45. a.tramp

    a.tramp Insubordinate and churlish
    Donor
    Kansas State WildcatsTexas Rangers

    I do not work on pools that have floating pucks or pucks in the skimmer. They all have dissolving chlorination units plumbed downstream of all pieces of equipment and have non-corrosive check valves installed directly upstream so no highly concentrated chlorine reaches the equipment.

    Running lower chlorine and occasionally having to scrub an algae bloom with a stainless steel brush is much more long term cost effective than running high chlorine all the time. If you are just worried about the algae, knock yourself out. I always look after my customers’ long term financial investment when I look at their pool.
     
  46. pperc15

    pperc15 Well-Known Member
    Donor

    Is your thinking all anecdotal or is there data you’ve seen showing high chlorine and equipment damage? And of course that taking cya level into account.
     
  47. a.tramp

    a.tramp Insubordinate and churlish
    Donor
    Kansas State WildcatsTexas Rangers

    Thank you for pointing out that he was chief technology officer for Del Ozone. That company fleeced more dollars off of pool owners than any other company I can think of.

    Also, why has he invented so many chemicals for pools? It is pretty basic as I recall you saying previously. Monitor pH, alkalinity, cyanuric acid, chlorine and occasionally phosphates. You do not need 111 chemicals to do that.

    Tri-Chlor tabs, shock, sodium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate, muratic acid, phosphate remover. I kept pools spotless and equipment problem free for 10 years using those only 6 chemicals.

    I guess I never tried to introduce 111 new pool chemicals and never needed to try to reinvent pool chemistry in order to sell them.
     
  48. pperc15

    pperc15 Well-Known Member
    Donor

    Is he wrong on the science though? That’s what I focus on. The science.
     
  49. stringmusic24

    stringmusic24 Iconoclast, Aspiring Misanthrope

    So, a.tramp, you do not recommend UV or Ozone systems or are the DEL systems particularly problematic?
     
  50. a.tramp

    a.tramp Insubordinate and churlish
    Donor
    Kansas State WildcatsTexas Rangers

    I fully believe in UV systems 100%. If you get the correct UV system you can even keep cyanuric acid in check.

    Ozone is a weak and potentially problem-inducing attempt of knocking off UV sanitation.

    The science of introducing “111 new chemicals” into an industry that only basically needs 6 chemicals?

    Or are you referring to the relationship of CYA and FC? You are not telling me anything I don’t already know about CYA. Buy the proper chemicals and it does not become an issue for about 10 years.

    Pro-tip: not all chlorine tabs are created equal, even though they have the exact same concentration of components in them.