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Discussion in 'TV Board' started by Codename Duchess, Apr 9, 2015.
I said what I said
Yeah I totally agree. The insinuation that he wasn't behind the coverup, or he didn't know EXACTLY what happened. of what happened made zero sense and is totally implausible. I dunno if he was just bullshitting and trying to cloud shit up, but there is no way all that happened in the coverup wouldn't have happened without his direct involvement. That is the part of the conversation that made absolutely no sense.
Maybe he was talking about how he didn't understand his daughter and how fucked up she was and why all of this bad shit happened to her, him, his family, and resulted in all this mess? Maybe he was talking about how he didn't understand why Julie ran away (though come the fuck on Mr. Hoyt, she was a prisoner) I guess? The "do I look like a man with answers line" thew a huge fucking wrench in the whole conversation.
I had a much bigger problem with that one sentence than I did with the whole Mr. June scene.
Are you saying you think he knew what happened to the kids? I don't get that impression. I think if he did he would not have been snooping in the house. Sure, it is possible he didn't trust his wife, but I think it is clear that she was the sole beneficiary of Hoyt's scheme.
Oh he 100% knew. He was gone when the abduction and murder of the little boy took place, and had no part in that plan, but when he returned he had to have been heavily involved in the coverup. There's no way he couldn't have been the one who orchestrated every bit of that.
You think Harris James went to Las Vegas to murder Lucy independently? Who do you think Lucy was calling with threats of exposure unless she got more money?
Who do you think was talking to the police chief, investigators, higher ups in the government to nip the investigation in the bud?
You think a little girl was living in the basement of his mansion and he didn't know what had gone on? Or had figured it out based on the news? That Mr. June wouldn't have told him?
You think Harris James independently killed Tom and Dan? The man knew where Harris James was at all times and hired him to be his lackey for this type of stuff.
How else do you explain how the massive coverup and subsequent murders to suppress the truth could possibly occur without his direct involvement
Agree on 8 episodes but a large part of this season turned out to be useless filler as the "crime" was completely straight forward and solvable after the second or third episode. Season 1 could have used a couple more but I think 2 more hours of this storyline with the same lack of payoff would only have disappointed & angered me more.
Another issue with trying to figure out the level of Hoyt’s involvement is that Mr. June doesn’t say a single thing about him when confessing to Hayes/West. Never implicated Hoyt in anything. Mr June even says he called Harris James to plant the backpack at Woodard’s. It just seems like this is a Isabella/Mr June/Harris James scheme with Hoyt aware but not really involved and trying to put the pieces together like Hayes.
Just can't see how this can be possible and if that is what the show was trying to do, then holy shit. That would make the entire plot shit. If you're the AG, and some nobody like Mr. June or Harris James, or some lithium'd out relative of Mr. Hoyt calls you up and asks you to cover up a child murder and abduction, there is no way you go along with that. Only a call from the big man himself would scare you or motivate you enough to actually go in with the coverup. When Hoyt returned from the trip and saw the news reports and details of the crime, it would be blatantly obvious what went on or he'd quickly find out. Also, Mr. June was not honest and lied in his statement... he also told them that he found Julie and that she was "really sick"... so what he told the cops was very calculated and he told them what he wanted them to know. He clearly was trying to protect Julie and probably Mr. Hoyt, as it was obvious he had a soft spot and intense loyalty to the family.
What would Harris James possibly have to gain from all of this, assuming Mr. Hoyt knew nothing? Mr. Hoyt is the one who gave him his cushy job and salary and was his boss and who he took orders from. I don't see how he would be motivated to commit murder on an order from a clearly insane Isabella. Only way he considers going through with all that stuff is if Mr. Hoyt himself does it. Logically I just don't think there is any way to get around the fact that Mr. Hoyt had to be directly behind the coverup, which again is what makes that one statement about having answers so bad.
I can’t really disagree with anything you said and you are right, a lot of this would have been clearer had the conversation between Hayes and Hoyt gone a different direction.
Meh, the entire premise is flawed because how the fuck could a police department, or at least 2 detectives (one of which was a skilled Army scout with recon training) not find a one-eyed black guy in a town of < 20K people in 20+ years
I think it was a good season overall, but I must admit that I'm disappointed. I mean, yeah, Hays solved the case, but there really wasn't any justice (except, arguably, Harris James getting his comeuppance). The Hoyts (including Junius Watts) never answered for their crimes, Julie's family all died without ever knowing what happened to her, the A.G.'s corruption went unchecked and two men were wrongfully accused and died as a result.
Also, I really really wish we had seen some kind of demonstration of Hays' skills as a recon soldier. We had all this buildup about what a badass he was and all we get is him tracking down Will's body. How cool would it have been to see Hays hunt down Hoyt (or some other bad guy) through the woods?
And not a single boob the entire season. Why is this even on HBO if they're not going to show some nudity?
It sure was convenient that this one witness was able to give them a nice expository summary of exactly what happened to Julie.
I'm assuming this was handled by telling us that the girl was drugged her whole life and the new "mother" told her how that guy wasnt really her dad which makes sense because she also never went back to using her real name
this is dumb and they should feel dumb for publishing it
I like this, but I’m weird
wait, who are you talking about being gone? I may have misread your post. I got confused. I thought you were talking about Tom Purcell.
Yeah. My wife said the same thing last night. When they walked hand in hand to the bright light, she was like ...that’s them going to heaven or whatnot or else it’s terrible tv.
The Vietnam scene had me like, wtf was that scene there for and him disappearing into the bushes.
I’d actually give him a bit more credit if that vf article was accurate, though it was poorly executed.
Do you guys seriously not understand that Harris was Hoyt’s personal cleaner? Is this something that some of you are confused by? Do you think that the bags being dropped to Lucy were dropped by Mr June and Hoyt didn’t know? Is there anyone in this thread who thinks that Hoyt didn’t use power, influence and muscle to keep Julie’s whereabouts hidden?
Yea that’s most likely what happened but after the Hayes/Hoyt conversation it became less not more clearer about Hoyts involvement. The show did itself a disservice with how that scene was done.
Why’s that? He was playing dumb the same way that Hayes was. He didn’t know what Hayes knew and was trying to feel it out. Same way Hayes didn’t know what he knew about Harris. That entire conversation was basically Hoyt saying “if you’ve got something on me, be aware I have something on you” I felt that was clear
We see it different. I saw a guy who seemed to not know very much. Again, the line “do I look like a man with fucking answers” was very believable to me. Whether the show intended for it to be or not. Imo, the scene could have been done where Hoyt strongly hinted he was involved in everything without admitting anything. I just feel like the scene was the opposite of that.
I look at it like this:
I don’t believe this is a problem that Hoyt creates, but I believe it’s a problem he made his own and a problem he dealt with in a very nefarious way.
And I don’t disagree with that. My point is the scene with him and Hayes could have made that crystal clear. I think it did the opposite.
But to what point does that scene cause you to question his involvement? Is there a point where you feel he jumped in? Or are you not sure if he were involved at all?
And to be fair, I honestly do feel that scene was handled in a way that allows discussion
Now that I’m discussing it
I don’t think it makes me fully question his involvement. I’m sure he was involved. Just question to what extent he was involved and what he knew. And like I said, maybe the scene wasn’t meant to be that way but that’s how I’m seeing it.
Another hays is dead article or perhaps just died and looking back.
I think Nick P went out of his way to make Hoyt look less of a POS than he was. Every step, he seemingly tried to cloud narrative. Away on safari, conversation with Hayes, etc. I get it, that’s what powerful people do, insulate themselves behind layers.
I was all in on the show. I enjoy the hell out of these shows and trying to speculate and whatnot. But so many parts of this season were a complete waste of screen time. I feel like the only thing that kept this show from really being terrible was the outstanding acting.
Sign me up for season 4. I’ll be here to bitch and moan again.
Another explanation for the ending.
Did Hays die on that front porch?
The last we see of Hays in 2015, he’s sitting in a rocking chair on his front porch with West and his family, enjoying some iced tea. But the sight of his grandkids riding bikes in the street — just like the Purcell kids — triggers a vision in his mind, first of him and Amelia in 1980, and then the Vietnam scene. Is it possible Hays’ life was flashing before his eyes as he drew his final breath, hit with a sudden ailment that takes his life? We’ll never know for sure, of course, but it does give us something to ponder… at least until Season 4 gets here.
Good season but my one question is does Julie know she is Julie ?
One thing they did way better this season than in the previous one was actually give us some emotionally resonant characters. Ali and Dorff just nailed it throughout, and I did actually care about these guys the same way I did the duo from the first season. Dorff again last night was just incredible, and the scene where he's crying in the parking lot with the dog was another opportunity for him to shine. I feel like he was a legitimate revelation as an actor.
that's a good question and one I didn't think of... I probably will go back and watch her final scene again to see if I pick up on any vibes. One would think she does given the nuns and friends at the church lied on her behalf and faked her death.
I didn’t see anything that made me think she knew her true identity but yeah you’d think so due to the nuns/faking of the death and her husband’s knowledge of her past. Perhaps lithium is a hell of a drug though.
yeah they didn't make it obvious she knew about her past at all. Its more us as viewers reading into what we know. They also live in west bubble fuck so that could also go to either her knowing her identity and wanting to stay clear the fuck outta town or her husband being protective. Seems like the viewer gets to fill in those blanks
Why would they need to do that? That's some straight up Law & Order shit, and would be solely for the viewers purpose. I think his bringing a detective out to the middle of the forest and threatening his family is a good enough confirmation for me.
My initial thought was he either died right there or that was the moment his Alzheimer's completely took over.
Interesting point. I guess that could be the angle that separates it from previous works. Maybe it is not about death but alzheimer's.
The last shot of him disappearing deep into the jungle makes me lean more towards the Alzheimer's route.
It's a good theory, but like the two articles I posted, that last scene mirrors the cut shot in Jacob's Ladder where the main character dies. I like the Alzheimer's angle since we were show it, and for all intents and purposes we don't know what happens to the brain in that state.
You could easily tie in the Jacob's Ladder's angle in to Wayne's mind "dying."
So, Wayne's first 'memory' when his mind was completely lost (on the front porch) was a throwback to his Vietnam days where he undoubtedly suffered some serious PTSD. A lot of people with PTSD and whatnot say the first thing their respective brains focus on are the horrible memories they previously had, because they are the 'strongest.' Thus, it would makes sense if his Vietnam memories came back first after he lost any semblance of control of his mind/thoughts?
Agreed, if in fact they were going for this type of twist, I much prefer the Alzheimer's angle and him looking back on important moments in his life as opposed to the death angle from Jacob's Ladder.
Side note, the thought of Having Alzheimer's is absolutely terrifying. I can't imagine the helpless feeling you'd get knowing you're going through the process of forgetting an entire life worth of experiences and all the people you've loved.
I really can't get over how closely they followed the template of Season 1, as Schadenfred pointed out. They couldn't even help themselves from tossing in a remix of the "if you get the opportunity, you should kill yourself" line. It seems like they got gun shy after season 2, which I can understand but I think they'll need to go in a totally different direction in Season 4 unless the end game is to tie all the seasons together somehow. I would be intrigued by that from a creative standpoint but I think they'd have to move pretty quickly in that direction to hold interest.
This season was good though, in and of itself. Well made and well told.
Again, the reason I say that is because, in my opinion, the scene trends more toward Hoyt being almost as clueless as Wayne. I think it’s obvious Hoyt was involved in some aspect. The scene unnecessarily muddies the water on that though, when it’s pretty obvious he had to be involved.
This is actually great and makes sense. I was a little lost on the final scene but i'm rolling with this. Just awesome
Few thoughts on the season and the discussion:
- Great season, amazing acting and overall character development. Ali and Dorff were perfect together
- In reviewing over the season, I actually like the choice of the focus to be more so on character relationships. How those relationships were formed, broken and then fixed again. This season focused more on that rather than a maze of conspiracies. And for me personally I think it was a good choice
- The Hayes and Roland relationship seemed pretty clear to me. In 1990 they killed Harris and it had a profound affect on both of them. That, along with the comments afterwards led them to going their separate ways in life.
- With regards to Hoyt and his convo with Hayes. I think its a situation where he is both powerful but also clueless. I dont think he had knowledge of the kidnapping plan ahead of time, but once it happened and the investigation started he did everything he could to get it suppressed. Then in the 1990 timeline, by this time Julie had escaped the room which I am sure had an affect on Hoyt's daughter and thus him. So he was at that point clueless as to her whereabouts. With the new investigation he was wanting to find her in order to keep the original crime a secret but had nothing to really go on. I just read it as him trying to get more information out of Hayes, and then agreeing that if Hayes left it alone he would leave the Harris James situation alone.
- I strongly believe that Hayes regained his mind while taking a drink from the water given to him by Julie. The look on his face and the subsequent calmness just read to me like he realized it but decided to let it be since she looked happy.
- I wont take credit for this thought since its been discussed elsewhere, but I really think Nic P made this season as almost a commentary on the True Crime/ Making A Murderer/ Conspiracy world we live in. Placing all these red herrings about some massive cover up when in fact it was a, isolated crime and nothing more.
Me too. I think this is how it all came together for me. If he didn't die or have Alzheimer's than the case would continue. Alzheimer's makes the most sense since that is what the story showed us throughout.
If he did regain his memory in that moment than he lost it just as quickly. I think the ending of him falling into Alzheimer's confirms that for us.
I think my biggest issues with the finale is that the entire season Hayes is losing his mind and leaving himself recordings/notes and shit to combat it, but when he has his biggest discovery he doesn't write down a note saying why the fuck he's going out to this random address? That seemed dumb to me.