may be late. But 8th amendment is what you’re looking for here. Prohibition on cruel and unusual punishments requires health care to be provided to prisoners.
only country as wealthy as we are that doesn't have universal healthcare "idealistic bullshit" "also I worked on 3 dem senate campaigns" it checks out folks
Never said that and don’t believe that. Unfortunately, our National conversation regarding universal healthcare is incredibly superficial and fails to consider the actual changes we’d need to implement to make it happen. So we get two sides- one is “free unlimited healthcare for everybody!” and the other “we can’t afford it! Socialism bad!” and there’s no nuance to an incredibly complicated problem. As someone who has worked on initiatives to expand Medicare enrollment I can tell you, both groups are an impediment to the ultimate goal of getting to universal healthcare.
No. They aren’t. The “free healthcare for everybody” people are right. And they’re the ones driving any movement on the issue.
I feel like an asshole for putting any cress on here, but I think it’s a reasonable response to being called a republican. To me, it’s idealistic bullshit to just scream “universal healthcare now!” without also acknowledging there are inherent limitations to how much we can do without making some significant changes to other practices. Yes, we’re the richest country in the world but we’re also the most obese and chronically ill.
I wonder if it ever occurred to him that the church is international and was around long before the usa… also that the donations don’t all come from where people
Retweeting a Bernie meme isn’t driving anything. I agree that they are right, but those actually driving the movement understand that it’s going to take more than just handing out Medicare cards like its an Oprah Christmas special.
coincidentally the other half of why americans are so unhealthy is we have horrendous social welfare (but improving) and labor power (literally the worst) so yes, it's a multi faceted lift but blaming the people who are unhealthy in part due to not having universal healthcare on why we can't have universal healthcare is an INSANE take
Not true. You go to Western Europe, where they have universal healthcare, and find a place (that isn’t a parody restaurant on American dining or a tourist trap) that serves the portion sizes we do here. Or a convenience store that sells 64 oz. single serving sodas. Ffs, even the stuff you get out of a vending machine over there has expiration dates on it. Rarely if ever have I seen that in the states, because most of the shit our government allows producers to sell us is more preservative than it is food. I mentioned earlier in this thread that both my parents passed from preventable diseases. They also both have siblings overseas that have lived considerably longer lives. In large part I believe that’s due to their access to universal healthcare, combined with a strong public health system that prioritizes preventive health and a generally healthier lifestyle. We’re not obese and sick because of our shit healthcare system. We’re sick and obese because of the shit we’re exposed to prior to entering the health system, from there it just doesn’t get any better because for profit treatment sucks. Im not the bad guy here fellas. I’d rather discuss ideas than get into a pissing contest of whose the most righteous liberal.
you're always in the healthcare system, it's just whether you're allowed to access it for preventative care or not also yes diseases of despair (which includes disregard for your own diet) are more more prevalent here and the capitalist machine doth provide.
I don't think anybody would argue otherwise. At the end of the day, this country - far more than any in "western Europe" - has allowed capitalism to dictate what "food" looks like, and (on numerous levels) what it means to eat
I don’t disagree with any of that. By entering the system, I meant initiating actual treatment, which for most people in the US happens in the ER. And for the reasons you cited- lack of preventative care, diseases of despair. When, and not if, we get to universal healthcare, societal tendencies and habits will need to change when it comes to attitudes towards preventive medicine and self-destructive activities. It’s not going to happen overnight, but for the system to work the vast majority of people will need to get on board. I think it would be great if we did, and really hoping it happens sooner than later.
a great way to kick start it would be medicare for all (not abolishing private insurance, just auto enrolling everyone during life events like birth) remove the medicare tax cap, throw a couple points on the medicare tax on the employer side, rebalance payment structuring for physicians and mandate all providers accept medicare (universality would take care of most of this), shoot the money cannon at expanding both US production of physicians (tuition free!) as well as global recruitment, collective medication negotiations, on and on the pathway is there, I find the "we need to behave like a collective before we can do it" framework is backwards
It really doesn’t though. We could eliminate the age restriction for Medicare tomorrow if democratic senators were willing to do so. Now doing that isn’t the national healthcare Bernie or I are looking for (and we’d have to rewrite parts of the act to allow for negotiating drug costs) but it’s a significant step that way. There aren’t structural impediments to doing it. There are financial disincentives to doing it because insurance companies buy politicians. The reason we don’t get movement is because Democratic senators fail the majority of the nation that wants national healthcare in order to look after the wealthiest campaign donors - just like republicans do. It isn’t complicated. It isn’t impossible to do. Our representatives lack the willpower to serve the public. That’s the entire story.
All of the stuff you’re talking about are federal regulations that come after we get universal healthcare - not before. You don’t continue to let people die due to lack of coverage because “the nation just isn’t healthy enough for healthcare.” That’s the exact opposite approach necessary to make the nation healthier.
Largely agree, but you’re talking about implementation. I’m talking about UC’s ability to survive and thrive longterm. When we implement UC, those changes need to at least start to go into effect almost immediately for the system to survive. You’re likely not going to get much buy in from older demographics but it’s imperative that younger people create new cultural norms around preventive care and dietary habits. The government is also going to have to do a better job of protecting people by regulating the shit that’s allowed into our food systems. To bring this back full circle, if some Trumpster is hell-bent on not getting vaccinated despite being educated on its personal and societal benefits because he/she thinks there’s a microchip in it, or they want to “own the libs” and 40% of the population agrees with them, the choice under a UC system likely becomes either: 1. Continue to treat them until the system is broke and everyone gets worse care as a result or 2. Respect their decision to not get the shot but also let them know that by doing so, the same gov’t they’re so certain is trying to violate their personal rights isn’t going to bail them out when they get sick from an entirely preventable condition. we can disagree on which is the better choice. I’m of the mind that able-minded adults can weigh the consequences of their actions and make an informed decision and that ensuring the survival of a UC system is paramount.
Dems don't actually want any of this shit. They're just happy to let a couple of them take all the heat. If it wasn't those two it'd be somebody else. The establishment is the problem.
Every government program of every government ever had to be adjusted over time. You don’t have to have it perfect on day 1.
Agreed. I didn’t say perfect. I conceded older demographics wouldn’t buy in…what exactly are we arguing about? Is this about me being a Rutgers fan? Listen, the biggest favor we can do you guys this year is beat you in the big house and send ol’ Jimmy packing. History has shown, a loss to RU means a new coach at UM. You can thank me in October
I meeeeean are we supposed to believe that Russia wouldn’t do anything to win an Olympic medal? Because evidence says otherwise. Also there are like millions of other pieces of evidence that Americans are dumb as fuck and brainwashed…. For example, like thinking Donald Trump, the butt of jokes for nearly 4 decades beforehand, would be qualified to lead our nation and is worth overthrowing American “democracy” for.
We’re arguing because you keep saying that providers should deny healthcare to people that need it. That is NEVER an acceptable suggestion. Period. Stop making it.
"we can't have universal healthcare until americans get healthier and act in the best interests of their fellow man" "also we're going to create a system that lets people die on the streets for their sub standard health choices, can't imagine this will fray the social bonds one bit" (before we even getting into how you decide where to draw that line, what pack history and type of lung cancer means we refuse to treat you?)
Is this a more indirect version of finance bro playing public health expert because he's good with spreadsheets? Either way, you couldn't be more wrong and from many angles. You seem to start with the assumption that a UC system can and must work within the current framework. That's a fallacy, one created to ensure failure.
Yeah the far right conservative math admits that universal healthcare is a net positive economically. I’m not sure what the counter to that is.
What if we find out that the vaccine causes thyroid issues 20 years from now. Are we cool with denying those who got the vaccine healthcare because they made the wrong decision? It necessarily goes both ways when you pretend like one’s health is the direct result of his behavior.
Again, not saying deny healthcare to people who need it. It’s respect the wishes of those who do not want to participate. Significant difference.
Could be? I am good with spreadsheets, but I’m not a finance bro. what framework are you referring to? The one where money isn’t unlimited and facilities have maximum capacities? Because I don’t either of those things change anytime soon.
If these are your actual opinions you are either full of shit about who you’ve worked for or the Democratic Party is more fucked than we know
That math has strong preventative care features baked in, or at least the numbers generated by less partisan tanks like Brookings does. I’m not that familiar with conservative studies because I think most of it is bullshit but would be happy to read a reference if you have one
Both major parties are more fucked than we know. The Repubs are more obvious about it. The Dems suck too. On paper they suck a hair less than the Repubs.
For a guy who's supposedly been intimately involved in Medicare policy, you sure seem to want to ignore an entire side of the equation when it comes to the changes involved with implementing UC. You're all up in your own self-fulfilling prophecy here because you're stuck in the current framework. If you (and enough others) believe it won't change anytime soon, it won't (and that's largely why it hasn't).
Cant wait to tell the NHS how much they can save if they stop treating people who make shitty decisions.
The system doesn’t work well in the modern era. That’s one reason for the Trump cult. It isn’t all about racism. Although that certainly factors in. Admittedly, for a certain segment of the Trumpists it is the main factor. Something needs to change, but I hate the Facist Dictator solution the Trumpists favor. There needs to be some other kind of organic/grassroots movement. One that embraces the ideals of the Constitution but minimizes the political impact of corporate wealth. I’m not sure how that happens, or even what it would look like.
It hasn’t changed because as someone on here astutely pointed out, the political will isn’t there. It’s not just healthcare insurance and pharma that owns these legislators. Agriculture, tobacco, firearms all lobby to keep health privatized because it’s good for business. It’s not about not dreaming big enough, it’s about dreaming beyond UC implementation and considering what it will take to keep it. Does anyone here sincerely think we can sustain a UC system without addressing things like societal obesity, the gun violence epidemic, the use of carcinogens in agriculture, etc,? If so, please provide an example of an organized state that managed to do so, as I’m not aware of one.
I'm not sure if it's worth continuing at any depth at this point, but you're presenting a false choice. And in doing so, you're also using that to support your idea that certain people should be denied healthcare, all the while ignoring that denying people healthcare continues and exacerbates the string of societal ills. You really don't understand why you're so far off here?