Venezuela Topic

Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by southlick, Feb 23, 2019.

  1. Mister Me Too

    Mister Me Too Well-Known Member
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    From what I’ve read the lost of money comes from the cost of expansion of production, which doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the Canadian government. And while you think your taxes are high but I bet you that we pay more than you do when you add up the cost of health insurance, healthcare and saving for college, all of which are included in the taxes you pay.
     
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  2. Popovio

    Popovio The poster formerly known as "MouseCop"
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    Watson, I love you dawg, but that is plain wrong. It's hard to characterize Iraq as unstable with Saddam at the helm, he ruled with an iron fist. All we did was introduce chaos into one of the most culturally volatile regions on the planet, install a formerly repressed Shiite majority population looking to get theirs into government, wiped our hands, and fucked off. There is not a chance ISIS even comes close to the heights they achieved with the Baathists still controlling the military in Iraq. In fact ISIS got more dangerous because Al-Maliki and the U.S ousted the Baathist officer corps, as a pretty a significant number of them joined ISIS and greatly improved their fighting effectiveness.

    Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died because of our bullshit invasion. Not that life under Saddam was rosy or anything, but we sure as hell were the ones to bring instability to the region.
     
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  3. High Cotton

    High Cotton Where does this fall in our Christian walk?
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    We could log the entire Amazon to create one massive oil field.
     
  4. TAXTAXTAX

    TAXTAXTAX Well-Known Member
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    Please don't tell Elliott Abrams
     
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  5. TC

    TC [expletive] strong ass post
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    Don’t have a whole lot of background on this topic but I noticed @NothingIsOT’s posts are consistently getting zero likes
     
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  6. Frank Martin

    Frank Martin tough love makes better posters
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    Pop, you're not really arguing against my post. You're making the argument that Sadaam did a better job of controlling the population in Iraq through human rights violations. Which is what my post said.

    You're not trying to argue that we created the Sunni/Shiite/Kurd divide are you? Because that's what you would need to argue if you're trying to tell me that I'm wrong.
     
  7. Joe_Pesci

    Joe_Pesci How can less be more? It's impossible
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    He didn't seem to know about the 2002 coup attempt or that Maduro "won" his last election, but at least he can stay on topic. Few things get an eyeroll from me quicker than "communism is against human nature, prove me wrong"
     
  8. TC

    TC [expletive] strong ass post
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    :blowup:
     
  9. Joe_Pesci

    Joe_Pesci How can less be more? It's impossible
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    It's actually saying something. Look at how many people are in here trying to relitigate some 200 level philosophy discussion section
     
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  10. TAXTAXTAX

    TAXTAXTAX Well-Known Member
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    The bottom line is that Maduro is fucked. With Brazil as an adversary, instead of an ally, they have no friends.

    Lula being defeated really seals the deal. China can't really help too much because of Monroe Doctrine. This is our hemisphere.

    They either suffer under the current conditions, or replace the government with one more friendly to the US.
     
  11. Joe_Pesci

    Joe_Pesci How can less be more? It's impossible
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    Honestly they've probably been fucked since Chavez took over. The US only punishes socialist governments in this hemisphere. Shit, it kept the embargo on Cuba for almost two decades after the Soviet Union collapsed.
     
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  12. Popovio

    Popovio The poster formerly known as "MouseCop"
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    No, of course the potential for sectarian violence was always there. Is potential instability the same as instability though? It seems that what you're arguing is that we can't be held responsible for the cultural divisions that existed before we invaded, which in a way is true. At the same time it's also like intentionally dropping a match into an oil drum and then arguing that the potential for it to explode was always there, so you're not culpable. I don't see how the U.S invasion couldn't be perceived as the catalyst that set the country on fire.
     
  13. og543ss

    og543ss ready to party? by party I mean smoke cigarettes
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    Literally putting words in my mouth commie
     
  14. Joe_Pesci

    Joe_Pesci How can less be more? It's impossible
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    You may not realize it but that's where you were going. That's where it always goes.
     
  15. The Milkman

    The Milkman Send lawyers, guns and money, shit has hit the fan

    This article describes the situation Venezuela is currently in. 1)Tons of government corruption and 2)As crude dropped from $140 to $40, the spending on social programs remained the same creating an exponential inflation situation. I'm not sure how this is the fault of the US, other than the fact the shale boom started here thus increasing supply of global fossil fuels. Venezuela govt should have invested more in the diversification of the economy while the going was good, however they wasted it with inefficiencies.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...pump-it/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.0d10a551be5d
     
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  16. Frank Martin

    Frank Martin tough love makes better posters
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    So are you seriously arguing Iraq was better off with 8% of the population indefinitely controlling the country through brutal mass murders, torture, forces disappearances, rapes, and other human rights abuses?

    Sorry Pop, I love you but that's an elementary school argument similar to the argument people made that the Civil War, Reconstruction and Jim Crow era weren't worth the violence and we should have just left slavery.

    You may be right that we lit the match, but you're willfully ignoring the fact Sadaam gassed 180,000 Kurds on his own. Look at the progress that's taken place in Erbil and the Kurdish region over the last 15 years. Would that have happened under Sadaam?

    It's easy to look back on history and say you wouldn't be one of those emancipation deniers. But it's an apt comparison because we spent 14 years occupying the South after the Civil War. And here 150 plus we still have issues with integration. Drastic change doesn't happen overnight. But one day Iraq will be a functional democracy and the hardship will have been worth it.

    The worst thing is like you said, just washing our hands of it and allowing it to fester.
     
    #316 Frank Martin, Feb 25, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
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  17. Popovio

    Popovio The poster formerly known as "MouseCop"
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    Well, I definitely agree with you there. Gotta remember that this argument has stemmed from whether we introduced the instability to Iraq, not whether the upheaval would be worth it 150 years later. I'd say 15 years later the evidence is pretty damning, but like you said, only time will tell. I have a very strong feeling that history will not be kind to our "benevolent" democratic crusade.

    Also, yeah, 8% of the population brutally controlling the country is no good, but we have installed a vengeful Shia majority rule that has now purged all Sunnis from the government. The pendulum has swung hard the opposite direction, and I doubt we see a secular government in Iraq any time soon. I'm not even gonna delve into the Civil War aspects which doesn't seem compatible with this argument, since it was by definition an internal struggle. At least the occupying force in the South had the benefit of being mostly culturally homogeneous. In Iraq, we inserted ourselves into what is essentially an alien culture, and made plans for their freedom based on our own views and cultural values. We violated the prime directive, as Jean-Luc would say. When it continuously went tits up, we essentially gave up and said good luck.

    We could probably argue back and forth about Iraq in this Venezuela thread forever. I think our intervention was based on false pretenses, and poorly planned without any regard or forethought to the ramifications on the populace. If our reasons for invading were based on freeing a people from a dictator (which they weren't), then why haven't we extended our most gracious hand to the numerous other worthy candidates suffering under despots throughout the globe? I don't think it was, or will be worth it (I know it sounds callous); despite Saddam being a complete monster. That's where I stand.
     
    #317 Popovio, Feb 25, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  18. Frank Martin

    Frank Martin tough love makes better posters
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    Now this is something we can agree on. We didn’t go into Iraq for the right reasons. We invented a false narrative to justify the war. That’s irrefutable.

    But you bring up a good point and why the Iraq discussion is relevant to Venezuela. We need to do more to improve the lives of people outside our country.

    The reason we don’t help other countries under brutal despots? Because people like Lyrtch aren’t willing to sacrifice to make the world a better place. Instead they choose to place a bandaid on the situation and ignore the atrocities because it’s easier.

    We pulled out of Iraq because it was easy. Then you saw the rise of ISIS because of it. The same thing is going to happen in Afghanistan. You have 8 million kids in school, 40% of them female. God help them when the Taliban takes back over. You have an entire generation that’s developing through education and becoming more secular. The seed is planted and it’s a shame it’s so easy to give up before it sprouts.

    Here we have a chance to help Venezuelans but you have liberals in here arguing in favor of dictators. What a sad time to be alive.
     
  19. AIOLICOCK

    AIOLICOCK Well-Known Member
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    Link to literally anyone in this thread arguing in favor of dictators? Thx
     
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  20. HatterasJack

    HatterasJack Is your refrigerator running? It's Mike Hunt.
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    You serious with this?
     
  21. NothingIsOT

    NothingIsOT I got you COACH!
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    Bet you thought you were going to get a ton of likes for that brilliant observation.
     
  22. NothingIsOT

    NothingIsOT I got you COACH!
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    No I didn’t know about the 2002 coup. You got me there.
     
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  23. Frank Martin

    Frank Martin tough love makes better posters
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    Which do you disagree with?

    That we ended our combat operations in Iraq because it was the easy alternative ?

    Or that ending combat operations allowed ISIS to take over large areas of Iraq?
     
  24. Frank Martin

    Frank Martin tough love makes better posters
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    Why would I need to link you to your own posts?
     
  25. HatterasJack

    HatterasJack Is your refrigerator running? It's Mike Hunt.
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    The rise of ISIS is more closely associated with the invasion of Iraq than the withdrawal.

    And what are the alternatives to the US withdrawing from Iraq and Afghanistan, occupy them in perpetuity? I guess that is certainly a less “easy” alternative. We have been in Afghanistan for 18 years. 18 years. I’m assuming you are in favor of the US getting involved in every terrible situation around the world because perhaps we could make it better (although our track record isn’t great with that).
     
  26. Frank Martin

    Frank Martin tough love makes better posters
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    :laugh: Are you seriously trying to make this argument? That the rise of ISIs is the result of the withdrawal, but the withdrawal never would have happened without the invasion?

    Are we in middle school?


    We’ve been in Germany and Japan for 75 years.

    Yeah you can firmly put me in team we should use our resources to make the world a better place.
     
  27. CaneKnight

    CaneKnight Fuck Donald Trump
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    It's amazing hwo fucking naive some of you can be. Even when all the evidence in front of you says otherwise. The U.S. hasn't done something for the right reasons since World War 2
     
  28. HatterasJack

    HatterasJack Is your refrigerator running? It's Mike Hunt.
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    No. I’m saying the US invading Iraqi and destabilizing the country along with Assad sending his radical Islamic prisoners into Iraq in response was a bigger contributor to the “rise of ISIS” than the withdrawal. ISIS was a thing long before any withdrawal.

    Also, comparing post WW II conditions to the war on terrorism is rich.
     
  29. Frank Martin

    Frank Martin tough love makes better posters
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    This is the weirdest part of their argument.

    It’s akin to when the republicans would argue, the first attempt at universal health care won’t fix the problem immediately therefore we shouldn’t try.

    I imagine their positions would be different if Obama was initiating the change. Similar to how we supported Obama when he chose to surge in Afghanistan. Feels like party politics on their end.
     
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  30. NothingIsOT

    NothingIsOT I got you COACH!
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    There’s literally no better chance than now to do something about Maduro. I want to talk about what’s the best solution, I don’t care if what I think is right or wrong if they’re getting the help they need.

    There’s a ton of hate in Colombia and Peru right now towards Venezuelans because there’s a lot of desperate people doing desperate things in their countries. I can tell a bunch of anecdotes. This issue hits close to home for me. They had a recession worse than our Great Depression. Caracas is a scary place. They have the highest murder rate in LatAm.

    I can’t imagine explaining to a Venezuelan that the US should sit on the sidelines because the US hasn’t helped anyone in 100 years, etc... it’s completely insensitive and distracts from the issue at hand. They don’t give a fuck who helps, they just want help. I’m glad we’re actually at the point where some of us are talking about what the solution is.
     
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  31. Mister Me Too

    Mister Me Too Well-Known Member
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    You actually stated that the US should not lead the charge into Venezuela, yet here you are finger wagging people that have been saying the same thing all along.
     
  32. southlick

    southlick Better Than You
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  33. southlick

    southlick Better Than You
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  34. Eathan Edwards

    Eathan Edwards Well-Known Member

    I have a layover in Caracas en route to a wedding in Peru - sounds like I should maybe skip this one.
     
  35. southlick

    southlick Better Than You
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  36. CaneKnight

    CaneKnight Fuck Donald Trump
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    I think what you mean to say here is "Lula being turned into a political prisoner and removed from the race by the fascists."
     
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  37. AIOLICOCK

    AIOLICOCK Well-Known Member
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  38. NothingIsOT

    NothingIsOT I got you COACH!
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  39. NothingIsOT

    NothingIsOT I got you COACH!
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  40. NothingIsOT

    NothingIsOT I got you COACH!
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    This is the original video that o personally filmed with my cell en Caracas. It’s the same video that Naduro didn’t want to see during our interview the next day. This video they can’t censure because we sent it to Univision before the interview.
     
  41. Name P. Redacted

    Name P. Redacted I have no money and I'm also gay
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    You’re losing any lefty credentials you may have had and are drinking in that Army kool aid. You both are completely looking past the question of why the US should be getting involved, especially considering our track record. We went into Libya and that turned out great. I suppose you’d prefer we just occupy every nation to keep them in line?

    Get the fuck out of here with this sanctimonious “I signed a check up to my life” bullshit you loser.
     
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  42. Frank Martin

    Frank Martin tough love makes better posters
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    I’m losing my lefty credentials because I believe in human rights and democracy?

    Might want to reevaluate your credentials when you’re arguing that genocide and dictatorships should be ignored.

    That’s the difference between myself and you guys. I’m actually a true believer that we should make the world a better place. You guys just want to feel good about yourselves.
     
  43. Llama

    Llama New Member
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    Hope it's not very long. Literally one of the worst airports in the world
     
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  44. Name P. Redacted

    Name P. Redacted I have no money and I'm also gay
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    Explain how we made Libya better. You’re too old to be this naive.

    Also LOL at implying that being in the Army makes you a true believer in making the world a better place.
     
    #344 Name P. Redacted, Feb 28, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
  45. Eathan Edwards

    Eathan Edwards Well-Known Member

    nm
     
    #345 Eathan Edwards, Feb 28, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  46. Eathan Edwards

    Eathan Edwards Well-Known Member

    How bad are we talking - as in definitely don't do it?
     
  47. NothingIsOT

    NothingIsOT I got you COACH!
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    Safety or overall sucky?
     
  48. Eathan Edwards

    Eathan Edwards Well-Known Member

    Just safety - I can handle a miserable airport but not if it's a legitimate risk situation.
     
  49. Illinihockey

    Illinihockey Well-Known Member
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    The US has never done anything for the right reasons. Its done things in its own self interest which is kind of the point of a government.
     
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  50. Llama

    Llama New Member
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    You'll be fine safety-wise. The international terminal is 10 times better than the national one. It should still be air conditioned. If you got to poop do it on the plane because toilet paper is hit or miss and most of the toilets don't work anyways. There used to be an Admirals Club which is totally worth it if it's still there. The benches suck, the food is questionable, most outlets don't work, very little to do.