there is a right answer. Without a doubt there is a right answer. If we’re being honest we know it. If the question is discrimination vs acceptance or exclusion vs inclusion, understanding vs hate. We know what the answer.
For everything other than physical competitions I agree with you. There is a reason we already separate men’s sports from women’s sports and it’s not because women are incapable of playing with men. In fact, we usually let women compete against men if they really want to. We do that because they aren’t seen as a threat to the integrity of the competition. Men are considered to be so physically superior that we created separate competitions just for women. It’s inherently unfair to the women to make them compete against men. If a cis man wanted to compete against women I’d hope he’d be discriminated against and excluded. Surely you remember being on sports teams and how important winning was and how shitty it felt when the other team or player had an unfair advantage. I think it has to be possible to be accepting, inclusive, and loving towards trans girls while also being respectful of the cis girls’ opportunity to participate in a fair competition.
we gone through all this already. We don’t know what advantages a trans girl in treatment has when competing against cis girls. Your “well duh they do argument” isn’t proof. It just isn’t as much as you want it to be as much as you say it, it just isn’t. Moreover, painting this as a man vs woman thing is insensitive and disingenuous.
Couldn’t you just agree that until there is any sort of empirical evidence that trans girls have an advantage over cis girls, especially at the 4-18 year old level that we shouldn’t ban trans girls from those competitions?
It's best to discriminate against a whole group of people because of this thing that probably isn't happening and really shouldn't matter as broad acceptance is more important than sporting events
Incredible that almost every perspective from the contrary starts and ends from the point of view of “If I was a girl (or if I had a daughter), I would think this was tremendously unfair.” What if you or your child were transgender?
On one hand you're feeding into the social stigma that already exists towards transgender people and making someone's life harder who already has a pretty difficult road but on the other hand what if someone has an advantage in an amateur sporting event (although no one's really sure that's actually happening)?
We don't even let women decide what is fair or not with their own bodies, no way we are letting them decide something like this.
I just think he's ignorant. Same thought process as people who think gay people choose a life full of discrimination and ridicule. Homosexuality and transgendered persons have been around since the dawn of humankind. Only folks who are happy to fight the culture wars think anything is new about this and most certainly have little empathy for the lives such persons lead in our cruel society through no fault of their own besides being brave enough to be themselves.
Voodoo giving off major "trans people are icky" vibes. Pretending to care about fair competition in high school girls sports enough to talk about it for three pages lol
If I had a daughter that got beat at sports by a trans girl I'd hope she'd be a fucking empathetic and kind person
I feel like 99.9% of high school kids nowadays wouldn’t even give it a second thought unless their shitty parent got in their ear about it.
Yes, you are. That’s how the teenage boys beat them down narrative entered the anecdotal repertoire of every social conservative. Or did you go down to Texas and watch the practice live and judge that biological women are simply out of their depth against developing men?
Also pretty hilarious to take the position that k-12 educational sports funded by public taxpayers exist to find out who is the very best athlete.
I'm not convinced the Grundy wouldn't immediately disown one of his sons if they came out in any sort of way. He was way too serious about being glad he doesn't have girls...so that they don't have to compete against MTF girls in high school sports? Yeesh
I'd be thrilled if my high school aged child were to compete against a trans person tbh. Great learning opportunity at a critical age of social development. That type of shit is way bigger than whether John Adams High is the best at girls triple jump
Since we last had a big discussion in this thread, there have been a lot of studies on this subject. World Rugby conducted one and found significant enough difference and safety concern to exclude transwomen from participation in women's rugby. There was also this metastudy: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3 And this military study: https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2020/11/06/bjsports-2020-102329.full The unamazing results will not shock you. Males have big physical advantages and retain a lot of them even well into hormone therapy. So this is a thing. It's real, it's an issue. Obviously a lot of people here think that inclusion of trans people into the category of their gender identity outweighs those concerns. Fair enough but I think the complete genderification of distinctions that were made on the basis of sex will have big ramifications for the fairer half of the population.
Makes him squirm a little for like 20 seconds then he forgets about it and moves on to the next grievance.
This thread has helped me to understand what possessed Stephen Miller to jump into a girls track meet to prove men are genetically superior.
*testosterone-suppression therapy More to most hormone therapy regimens than what these studies considered, not to mention the limitations on the demographics (post-pubescent, non-athletes, etc.). Extrapolating gen pop data to impacts on sports at a variety of levels and weighing that against the actual impacts on the interested parties (especially at the high school level) is a fool's errand at this stage. Maybe this will actually be an issue in the future, but it lost certainly is not currently, and MTF individuals are not anything new. If anything, the greater medical understanding and advances that are able to improve the lives of these individuals will only make this even less of an "issue" moving forward.
The alternative explanation is your zealous passion for fair competition in high school girl's sports to the point that you're willing to exclude people with flimsy evidence of large scale disparate outcomes which I guess is better but also kinda weird I didn't say you were a bigot btw. It's okay that trans people make you feel uncomfortable. It's a thing many people are unfamiliar with and unfamiliarity breeds discomfort. But it's on you to reckon with the discomfort and not convince yourself it's something else
Wow. Just wait until one of the authors of the study you just quoted finds out! https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1252764 I would like to reiterate, because I think it’s very important, that even if transgender athletes are shown to have some sort of competitive advantage, it is still not worth excluding them.
Yeah it must be the thing you’ve made up in your head and not what I’ve literally been saying for pages.
So you're just really concerned about the sanctity of high school girl's sports then? I'm skeptical but okay. I also disagree that what you advocate protects anything worth protecting
It really boils down to you're willing to exclude and possibly traumatize a group of people over a problem no one is positive exists and over something that isn't all that important. That seems like a really shitty thing to do.
Oh all kinds of stuff. It's worth looking at what some of the feminists who weigh in on this stuff say to get a good idea of their concerns. But basically, that women have been discriminated against on the basis of sex for millennia and the push to erase it or conflate with gender identity ignores the basis on which women are oppressed and brings males into spaces that were created to help balance things. Examples include males being housed with females in prisons, women competing with male physiology in sport, women being denied same sex medical service providers, males distorting female crime statistics, women being sued because they won't provide intimate services to males. You know women. Always complaining. Anyway, worth a look to see what their concerns are.
It's a lack of understanding of the purpose of sports for 99.9% of the people who play them. The other 0.1% often end up quite damaged as well due to the hero worship and lack of being told no.
Please tell us more, Mr. Man, about what women think. Surely they're just a monolith, as you've just portrayed them here. Your post is literal erasure in its own right. You even picked some areas that best served yourself and your argument. Bravo, good sir.
so terfs the brief rebuttal of the terf position is that the dissolution of reified barriers around sex (or any other symbolic category) is good for the disadvantaged group
I read all of these posts the first time. People hide the ball in arguments all the time. Is that a concept you're unfamiliar with? I'm skeptical you actually care this much about fairness in high school girl's sports. That skepticism leads to alternative theories about what's truly driving your arguments. The most likely of those is "icky trans people." People do this shit all the time with regards to this particular topic. It is not socially acceptable to reject trans people outright so the rejection is hidden behind things like protecting children or the sanctity of sports.
for sanctity, recall that Norway doesn’t keep score until kids are like 16? or something like that, and it’s free for anyone to play any sport. They also punch above their weight in international sports, and have fewer idiotic breeders frothing at the mouth while screaming at preteens to run the damn ball
Oh yeah, I saw that there was some data suggesting that after some extended therapy things can get on the same ballpark. Like I say, theres definitely a physical advantage. Perhaps it can be mitigated. How do we deal with it? Pertinent stuff. And yeah, I know your take and I respectfully disagree for sure in some situations and obviously would take a different approach.
So you read all my posts where I said it’s unfair to the cis girls to compete against trans girls and decided that’s not actually what I think and what I actually think is that trans girls are gross, even though I never said anything close to that. Is that a strawman? I’m rusty on my logical fallacies...
hes saying your protesting about fairness smacks of obfuscation since it seems unlikely that anyone would care so much about the sanctity of sports in this very narrow sense
I would love him the same. It’s pretty sickening how you keep spewing BS when you don’t know me at all.
From my perspective it’s surprising that there are so many people that apparently don’t care about the cis girls/women who would potentially have to compete against the trans girls/women.
I just saw the one about you thinking CB gave you some weird victory in a thread that shouldn't be about poster victories.