What is your opinion on transgendered persons competing in the Olympics?

Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by lechnerd, Mar 1, 2019.

?

Should transgendered athletes be allowed to compete in the Olympics and in what fashion?

  1. No, Shouldn’t be allowed at all

    11.6%
  2. Yes and can compete as a M/F depending on how they view themselves

    6.0%
  3. Yes but must compete according the genitalia they were born with

    53.0%
  4. Yes but create an entire new Olympics for the transgendered

    6.4%
  5. lechnerd is fat

    23.1%
  1. CloudBerry

    CloudBerry Well-Known Member
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    Again I find this bizarre. I think you're missing the forest. Culture and law can address biology-based discrimination. We do it all the time. I don't see the point of explaining it but I think you should be able to get it.

    If you say so. Feel free to tell me what I'm wrong about.
     
  2. VaxRule

    VaxRule Mmm ... Coconuts
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    Explanation for you:

    Some women are/have been discriminated against by employers for being pregnant. That’s sex discrimination. But also:

    Some women are/have been discriminated against by employers because they might become pregnant at some point in the future. That’s gender discrimination because it’s based on a perception of what a woman is/does.

    In both of those instances, the discrimination is not due to the biology of the women involved. It’s due to bad thinking on the part of the discriminator based on growing up in a shitty society that makes value judgements about people completely independent of their biology. The discrimination is due to failing to value these women as people first.

    It isn’t due to their biology.
     
  3. CloudBerry

    CloudBerry Well-Known Member
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    Well you are the boards resident expert on what posters REALLY mean when they disagree with you lol. I'll be glad to hand over the names. Kathleen Stock comes to mind immediately. Jesse Signal and Katie Herzog often have opinions on these issues but aren't full-time. Maya Forstater pops up a lot. I'll check for more, it's kind of a grab bag on twitter really.

    I misunderstood your request. Thought you wanted the references to trans men being accepted by radfems like I originally mentioned and I genuinely did not know where I had seen those.

    I think I've been open throughout this debate. If you want clarity on something I think I'll be happy to explain. I have no interest in lying about this stuff but I can see where there was a misunderstanding in this case.
     
  4. CloudBerry

    CloudBerry Well-Known Member
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    I really hate to respond because I think this is one of the most self-negating statements I have ever seen. But I have to ask a question.

    Would a biological man be fired because he is pregnant or may become pregnant?
     
  5. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    You haven't disagreed with me, you've just functionally been unable to read my question for some reason.

    But I'm glad you provided actual people, universally people in the TERF sphere (Singal being the softest member fwiw) who should completely agree with that label! Which is fine, I just was curious where this shell game ended.
     
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  6. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    this is basically the whole hide the ball game "Alt-right" folks played 5 years ago but anyone with any sense could see right through

    my "ethics in gaming journalism" post was a joke just based on the tenor of the discussion, but in retrospect was extremely accurate
     
  7. Redav

    Redav One big ocean
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    These conversations drive me insane because no one can explain why we should care about this thing that might not be happening, while doing something as trivial as playing sports, should necessitate damaging discriminatory behavior. Like that's nuts on its face but it's supposed to be taken seriously and I'm supposed to agree.
     
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  8. VaxRule

    VaxRule Mmm ... Coconuts
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    If a trans woman identified herself as female and presented as female, and her potential employer did not know her trans status? Then yes, she may very well face the same gender based discrimination as her cis sisters.

    Of course, she’s also likely to suffer from additional discrimination due to her trans status separate from what cis women face.

    I’m really trying to be nice with these explanations but if you remain unable to see that sex or gender discrimination is not due to biology, I am afraid neither of us will get anything out of continuing this conversation.
     
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  9. War Grundle

    War Grundle Nole Mercy
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    Just because you think it’s black and white doesn’t mean you make the rules or you are right. Not every issue is black and white.
     
  10. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    this response makes it seem like you both care a psychotic amount about sports but also you're hiding your actual grievance beyond the former

    so, good job being very honest?
     
  11. Redav

    Redav One big ocean
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    Profound
     
  12. CloudBerry

    CloudBerry Well-Known Member
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    I get that this is your schtick, we see it all the time. It has just been funny to me because I wasn't hiding my opinions in this thread. I laid it all out in sometimes excruciating detail and it's still all mask is slipping, shell game, hide the ball. I'm like dude you don't have to do that this time!
     
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  13. CloudBerry

    CloudBerry Well-Known Member
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    Oh yeah, I agree like i said we got nowhere to go here. I just had to ask that question
     
  14. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    disagree that you've been nearly as full throated as the people you cite are regarding their positions
     
  15. CloudBerry

    CloudBerry Well-Known Member
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    Fine. I'm not them. I think I've made my thoughts known and I've always answered questions honestly. Free to disagree in merica of course
     
  16. NCHusker

    NCHusker We named our yam Pam. It rhymed.
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    Love Rec league soccer but it attracts some mega douches. Like big time.
     
  17. War Grundle

    War Grundle Nole Mercy
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    No, not at all. Of course I would expect you to interrupt it that way.
     
  18. BWC

    BWC It was the BOAT times, it was the WOAT times
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    Pretty superficial and minor issue within the bundle of issues those bills have for no reason other than to spit in the face of "the others" and generate political support via irrational fear of already-marginalized people.
     
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  19. BWC

    BWC It was the BOAT times, it was the WOAT times
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    Just FYI, you haven't provided a valid counterpoint to AF's points on biology. Having nowhere to go isn't a good place to be...it just means you're stubborn and unwilling to learn, at greater depth, about things you don't understand as thoroughly as you think you do.
     
  20. Daniel Ocean

    Daniel Ocean I only lied about being a thief
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    women aren’t oppressed because they have vaginas. They are oppressed because religion tells men vaginas make certain people inferior and thus should be oppressed.

    FWIW I understand this is simplistic and for the sake of argument breaking down “biology” to simply penis and vaginas.
     
  21. CloudBerry

    CloudBerry Well-Known Member
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    My cheeky question and afrs delicate, evasive answer made my point in a much more efficient way than having to point by point refute stuff that I found self-negating anyway. Sometimes you just have to admit that you can't agree on basic terms with someone and say good day.

    I'm glad you support learning and open-mindedness. I've read a decent amount on this subject and I gotta say I find my argument more compelling than "discriminating against someone because they are or may become pregnant is not due to their biology" but feel free to persuade me.
     
  22. VaxRule

    VaxRule Mmm ... Coconuts
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    The hell are you talking about?
     
  23. CloudBerry

    CloudBerry Well-Known Member
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    I asked if a biological man would be fired for being pregnant or the possibility of becoming pregnant. Your answer:

    "If a trans woman identified herself as female and presented as female, and her potential employer did not know her trans status? Then yes, she may very well face the same gender based discrimination as her cis sisters."

    So your answer to my question was that a certain specific kind of male person would be discriminated against if the boss thought that person was female. So yeah I find that answer very narrowly couched and evasive.

    And it proves my point. A trans man could also be discriminated against because of potential pregnancy. A trans woman might be discriminated against for a number of reasons but that isn't one.
     
  24. electronic

    electronic It’s satire!
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    Parker Molloy might as well have read this thread:


     
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  25. CloudBerry

    CloudBerry Well-Known Member
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    This is way too reductive but I get what these takes are trying to say. Something like the oppression is not an automatic product of women's biology but a set of attitudes that society has adopted that they didn't have to. I guess? I didn't feel the need to address this because I thought it was thuddingly obvious and a distinction without a difference. Yeah society and culture codify stuff and put people into roles. Those notions didn't arise in a vacuum and just happen to settle on the female sex.
     
  26. VaxRule

    VaxRule Mmm ... Coconuts
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    Alright I’m done being nice. My response was in no way evasive. The conversation was and is about trans women. Of fucking course cis men aren’t discriminated against by employers. That has ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY NOTHING to do with biology. Cis men are members of a favored class. That has ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY NOTHING to do with biology. It is due ENTIRELY to shitty conclusions about the natural order that deem women to be worse than men. Saying “it’s due to biology” like you keep doing is some Jordan Peterson level stupidity.

    Men aren’t biologically superior entities to women. The discrimination women suffer in our society is not due to the inherent nature of their biology. It’s because men are raised to be assholes. That’s it. That’s the answer. Every time you say “it’s due to biology,” you’re just fucking wrong. Stop saying it. It makes you not only look stupid but like a complete fucking asshole.

    The only point you continue to prove is that you’re a moron.
     
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  27. og

    og ready to party? by party I mean smoke cigarettes
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    I am still against transgender competition in their own category as an update!

    I think their should be a male division, a female division and then an open division for any women or men born female. If you compete in one you cannot compete in another.
     
  28. Daniel Ocean

    Daniel Ocean I only lied about being a thief
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    excusing bigotry to biology is why we get shit like apartheid. Again it’s because religions tell men they are better that’s it. That is why.
     
  29. CloudBerry

    CloudBerry Well-Known Member
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    The best thing I can say is that your take on this issue is extremely shallow and myopic. I hope in the future you might read a dissenting view that would at least provide perspective and shake up the smug certitude you present here. Best of luck in the difficult issues of the day and no hard feelings here.
     
  30. VaxRule

    VaxRule Mmm ... Coconuts
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    I love contrary points of view. I don’t like ill-informed idiots trying to excuse bigotry with biology. Biology is not the reason historically oppressed peoples are oppressed. Biology is not the reason historically oppressive people oppress others. Get that phrenology level stupidity out of your head. I know more about human biology than you do. But that isn’t even important when discussing why men oppress women or white people subjugate people of color. Because biology isn’t the reason for those things. Shitty beliefs (like women or black people or Jews are inferior) are why we have sexism and racism.
     
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  31. CloudBerry

    CloudBerry Well-Known Member
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    Def read a dissenting view by one of the non-morons out there. Good luck and exelsior!
     
  32. electronic

    electronic It’s satire!
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    *excelsior, moron.
     
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  33. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    i'm baffled that you like, don't present this seemingly magical insightful view point

    you just continue doing what you claim you don't, really shallow terf takes that you couch to not get completely excised from polite company
     
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  34. EdmondDantes

    EdmondDantes Both winner in league and apparently at life, haha
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    lechnerd is fat
     
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  35. Redav

    Redav One big ocean
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    Like the old Jordan Peterson fans who can't tell you what he means and the only way to know is to watch this 45 minute YouTube video
     
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  36. Redav

    Redav One big ocean
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    I also don't get the "woman are discriminated against because of their biology" takes either unless you're basically moving into like phrenology territory. Maybe someday someone will explain it to me
     
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  37. steamengine

    steamengine I don’t want to press one for English!
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    *there
     
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  38. NCHusker

    NCHusker We named our yam Pam. It rhymed.
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    Blaming the discrimination on the biology of women and not the shittiness of men feels gross
     
  39. Iron Mickey

    Iron Mickey a guy who posted here like five years ago hates me
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    You can always tell when people are up to no good when they talk about "plain and simple biology." Like, language filters that, symbols filter that, there's no such thing as an encounter with pure biology.
     
  40. Iron Mickey

    Iron Mickey a guy who posted here like five years ago hates me
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    Love doing symbolic, cultural things "because of biology" and not because of symbolic cultural things.
     
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  41. BWC

    BWC It was the BOAT times, it was the WOAT times
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    You've read a decent amount about what you've wanted to read and what confirms your bias. You cited a couple studies just in the last day or two and showcased that you haven't the slightest clue of how to approach and read scientific literature.

    Believe what you want to believe, but it certainly does not make you informed, learned, intellectual, nor smart.
     
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  42. BWC

    BWC It was the BOAT times, it was the WOAT times
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    Biology quite literally might be the messiest bitch in this existence.
     
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  43. Iron Mickey

    Iron Mickey a guy who posted here like five years ago hates me
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    Like, this is Philosophy 101.
     
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  44. NCHusker

    NCHusker We named our yam Pam. It rhymed.
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    I got an A in biology in high school AMA
     
  45. Tommy Jefferson

    Tommy Jefferson Well-Known Member
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    How do we manage to make something so trivial as sport “fair” when humans are inherently unique?
     
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  46. NCHusker

    NCHusker We named our yam Pam. It rhymed.
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    Sports robots
     
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  47. electronic

    electronic It’s satire!
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    Especially when it is prefaced with “except for the [messy undefinable nonconforming parts of biology that do not fit my myopic worldview]...”
     
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  48. Daniel Ocean

    Daniel Ocean I only lied about being a thief
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    does it really happen to everyone and is it really no big deal? Do women really not care about a man’s hairline? Asking for a friend.
     
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  49. Iron Mickey

    Iron Mickey a guy who posted here like five years ago hates me
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    Weird hill to die on all around.
     
  50. Tug

    Tug Well-Known Member
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    This is really funny to me in a thread where a bunch of dudes are trying to claim size matters for the 400m dash
     
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