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Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by lechnerd, Mar 1, 2019.
Quote the post I said ‘real America’
You can’t? That’s putting words in my mouth. Thanks.
I would generally put the burden on the folks doing the exclusion.
So you think I am being disingenuous but you aren’t by saying you know that a large portion of people voted for trump because they think minorities are scary monsters? Interesting
See I added it in there, putting it in my mouth, you know it as in penis
Sorry, I have yet to mature
"Minorities are scary monsters" was the primary campaign point for Trump. I am giving his supporters credit for having listened to him when they decided to vote for him. I hope they don't support him because they think he's hot.
I never said they voted for him because they think minorities are scary monsters, I said they don’t have a problem voting for politicians that paint minorities as scary monsters.
If you’re the moving party, ie being discriminated against, you need to prove it. Like ever case in this country. The various women’s sports leagues aren’t attempting to modify anything. However I think my point is irrelevant because it sounds like the transgender community already successfully argued that they do not have an advantage. Plus some of the lab tests mentioned itt I’m just now reading.
A thread on a culture war topic being dominated completely by the feelings of an aggrieved and oppressed midwestern white male.
Didn’t see that coming.
I don’t think the likelihood of someone switching their gender identity just for a sport is very high. This is a boogeyman argument.
you really need to stop being so sensitive, you get upset because people don't treat you with kid gloves then you thrash about yelling at everyone calling people names
oh, and go read/listen to what I posted, based on what you're posting this morning you'd benefit from that information
No, I don't think the likelihood is very high either. On a list of reasons for transitioning, I'm sure it would be very, very low.
But that's completely irrelevant. If someone gains an unfair advantage from changing their sex and competing in women's competition because they were born male (and the physical attributes that come with that), it shouldn't be permitted. Sorry, it's just wrong - Martina N is completely correct, regardless of all the vicious shit she copping fron the trans community.
That’s all well and good, but you’re agreeing with the opinion of someone rather than actual factual data.
And it should be said transgender people are born that way. The stress of being a woman by means of anything other than a sex organ and correcting people about your identity (or trying to hide it) is going to be a severely negative impact mentally, physically, and emotionally. The science states that there isn’t a physical advantage. Perhaps we should look into the disadvantages they overcame to get to the point they could compete?
It's quantifiable that the best predictor of Trump voters is those who voted based on racial issues
I'm agreeing with her opinion because it's MY opinion, based on decades of following all kinds of sports - it's what my eyes and brain are telling me. Those born male are typically stronger and faster than their female counterparts, especially at the highest levels of competition. Some people defending the rights of trans athletes might not want to accept it, but it's true. So in many, if not most, cases it becomes an unfair advantage. It just is.
Is it unfortunate that some of those who now identify as women cannot (or should not) compete in some women's competitions? Sure. But sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few - the integrity of the competition is vital or the whole thing counts for nothing. We don't always get everything we think we're entitled to in life, and sometimes there's a good reason for it.
Is being stronger and faster all it takes to be elite?
Is all it takes to be stronger and faster is being born that way?
You’re discounting the mental portion of athletics as well as effort.
This is untrue for a man transitioning into a woman, unless maybe they were transitioned as a child.
There needs to be way more research done, including on a sport by sport basis, but for distance running this isn't true based on the current data we have. The study on it is why the IOC and other bodies changed their regulations in '15-16.
Can skip the parts about the scientist herself and focus on the research discussion if cramped for time. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/201...nsitions-alter-athletic-performance-including
It’s really debatable and needs to be defined as to what makes an athletic advantage on a per sport basis.
Not at all. I've played competitive sport for the last 30 years (at an average level) so I know full well that mental strength and determination often separates the winners from the losers. Hell, at least half of the tennis matches I've lost over the years have been my fault, not due to the superiority of my opponent.
But I also know that most of those playing any kind of elite sport are usually naturally competitive and driven, myself included. Anyone that tastes any kind of success has it in them - it comes with the territory, regardless of your gender.
Incidentally, I'm glad we're back to actually discussing the topic rather than whatever TF was happening on the last couple pages...
So are people that are transitioning not working just as hard to achieve their athletic goals?
Of course not. But the physical advantages can't be ignored. It's simply no longer a level playing field, and that's the issue many of us have about this.
But athletics are not, and have never been a level playing field
Is this even being argued? I’ve seen it being brought up more from posters that are more on the liberal side. They’re introducing it to this conversation as if it’s everyone’s reasoning for not wanting to allow it.
That's true, but any sport where increased body and muscle mass, bone density, bone structure, organ size (heart, lungs) and connective tissue strength matters is probably going to favor a transgendered woman over a natural woman. Those attributes may be reduced but won't be eliminated.
I'm kind of curious to see how it plays out, so why not.
MoJo brought up "fraud" but admittedly he didn't think it'd be a major issue, other people seemed to be responding to the Charlie Kirk tweet and lech implications early in the thread.
If people think this situation is occurring enough that it is causing the downfall of women’s sports, yes that is the argument being made.
Fwiw in another thread discussing this indoor Connecticut track meet (why?) people were worried about the likelihood of someone transitioning to receive Women Owned business advantages.
The idea that anyone is going to give up their identity for such advantages is so absurd to me. These people still have to work to earn their accomplishments.
Average male athletes aren’t going to say “wow I can beat women, I’m gong change my identity and spend a fortune on reassignment surgery and be ostracized by a bulk of society so that I can compete in that event”
Deleted - see below.
Come on man, we're starting to go around in circles now.
By your argument, we should just throw open all competition to all genders, because that kind of thing doesn't matter. Problem is, I don't see women beating the men in too many sports (except maybe rhythmic gymnastics and synchronized swimming).
Anyway, it's 3 in the morning so I've had enough discussion for now. Off to bed for me.
Again I don't think you see anyone in this thread who should be taking seriously making this argument.
And you know that just because people aren't making the decision to transition for that reason that the advantage can still exist right?
Using the argument "not all men are on the same playing field" is such a weak ass argument.
There are a number of disadvantages associated with transitioning.
Ignoring the point that those people still have to earn their way to that spot
I realize that, but what does that have to do with anything sports related?
did you read the NIH article
it does a good job of explaining why that is a very valid argument when we're cherry picking what hormone level, or insert X here, value is the bar
Do athletic events exist in a vacuum outside of society and it’s related pressures?
not to start a tangent but it's definitely interesting to see people so invested in the idea of "fairness" in athletics, especially with how squishy all the data is, but you can't get 1/100th the intensity of feelings regarding fairness in other aspects of life when the evidence is much more obvious
Also that people that likely have no interest in women’s athletics advocating for the sanctity of those sports while also employing laissez-faire free market policy in all other situations is absurd
You don't think there's enough data that show the development difference of male and female bodies?
And really dude? Not to start a tangent, but it's exactly what you're doing.
i'm not even going that far with my assumptions, its just always fascinating what sparks intense cultural interest (and gets repurposed into red meat for the right wing propaganda outlets) in a very micro issue
Pre and post transition related to performance, no not really. I'm a broken record in here, but actually look at the data and research on this. It's not as simple as people try to make it out to be.
It's only a tangent if you dive on it, but this topic may be the best example of the ability for something to become partisan jet fuel on a mostly benign issue that the values people hold sacred can be directly laid over much more destructive issues. I'm not saying you can't care about both at all, but the intensity levels always come off as jarring when you wander into the topics. Yes I understand I'm outrage auditing which is dumb to do and a dead end, I just find it interesting.
You keep saying there's not enough data, yet keep pointing to this research as the gospel on the matter when it covers only such a tiny portion of the sporting world. Not to mention a sport that involves no contact, and one that the gap between male and female is the smallest.
Always weird when people suddenly care deeply about fairness in women's sports to the point they want to prevent something that there's not much evidence is even happening
This was his first post in this thread.
6 pages and 50 posts later he’s still writing verbose tome-esque posts.
I've said 900 times that we don't have enough information to paint with the broad strokes people try to. That's it. We need more research on a sport by sport basis to determine if there is or if its significant enough that trans women have an advantage.
This is why I don't ignore your accounts tbh, your threads can have decent discussions at times if people dodge the charlie kirk tweets.
It's literally one of the top indicators of a Trump voter.
What are those issues?
It is very telling how many folks’ initial response is something along the lines of “of course trans women have a huge advantage, are you kidding me,” but then can’t point to any actual evidence beyond anecdotes.
So you disagree that men are physically stronger/faster to women genetically?