What is your opinion on transgendered persons competing in the Olympics?

Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by lechnerd, Mar 1, 2019.

?

Should transgendered athletes be allowed to compete in the Olympics and in what fashion?

  1. No, Shouldn’t be allowed at all

    10.1%
  2. Yes and can compete as a M/F depending on how they view themselves

    4.2%
  3. Yes but must compete according the genitalia they were born with

    54.5%
  4. Yes but create an entire new Olympics for the transgendered

    5.8%
  5. lechnerd is fat

    25.4%
  1. og543ss

    og543ss ready to party? by party I mean smoke cigarettes
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    Quote the post I said ‘real America’

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  2. electronic

    electronic Moderately-Known Member
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    I would generally put the burden on the folks doing the exclusion.
     
  3. og543ss

    og543ss ready to party? by party I mean smoke cigarettes
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    So you think I am being disingenuous but you aren’t by saying you know that a large portion of people voted for trump because they think minorities are scary monsters? Interesting
     
  4. AIP

    AIP Spilled the Paint
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    See I added it in there, putting it in my mouth, you know it as in penis

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  5. AlternativeFactsRule

    AlternativeFactsRule Mmm ... Coconuts
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    "Minorities are scary monsters" was the primary campaign point for Trump. I am giving his supporters credit for having listened to him when they decided to vote for him. I hope they don't support him because they think he's hot.
     
  6. Mister Me Too

    Mister Me Too Well-Known Member
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    I never said they voted for him because they think minorities are scary monsters, I said they don’t have a problem voting for politicians that paint minorities as scary monsters.
     
  7. 941Gator

    941Gator TMB's resident beach bum
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    If you’re the moving party, ie being discriminated against, you need to prove it. Like ever case in this country. The various women’s sports leagues aren’t attempting to modify anything. However I think my point is irrelevant because it sounds like the transgender community already successfully argued that they do not have an advantage. Plus some of the lab tests mentioned itt I’m just now reading.
     
  8. lechnerd

    lechnerd They say Monaco is a sunny place for shady people
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  9. Tug

    Tug Well-Known Member
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    A thread on a culture war topic being dominated completely by the feelings of an aggrieved and oppressed midwestern white male.

    Didn’t see that coming.

    I don’t think the likelihood of someone switching their gender identity just for a sport is very high. This is a boogeyman argument.
     
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  10. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    you really need to stop being so sensitive, you get upset because people don't treat you with kid gloves then you thrash about yelling at everyone calling people names

    oh, and go read/listen to what I posted, based on what you're posting this morning you'd benefit from that information
     
  11. paulski

    paulski Well-Known Member

    No, I don't think the likelihood is very high either. On a list of reasons for transitioning, I'm sure it would be very, very low.

    But that's completely irrelevant. If someone gains an unfair advantage from changing their sex and competing in women's competition because they were born male (and the physical attributes that come with that), it shouldn't be permitted. Sorry, it's just wrong - Martina N is completely correct, regardless of all the vicious shit she copping fron the trans community.
     
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  12. 941Gator

    941Gator TMB's resident beach bum
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  13. Tug

    Tug Well-Known Member
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    That’s all well and good, but you’re agreeing with the opinion of someone rather than actual factual data.

    And it should be said transgender people are born that way. The stress of being a woman by means of anything other than a sex organ and correcting people about your identity (or trying to hide it) is going to be a severely negative impact mentally, physically, and emotionally. The science states that there isn’t a physical advantage. Perhaps we should look into the disadvantages they overcame to get to the point they could compete?
     
  14. Redav

    Redav My favorite meat is hot dog
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    It's quantifiable that the best predictor of Trump voters is those who voted based on racial issues
     
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  15. paulski

    paulski Well-Known Member

    I'm agreeing with her opinion because it's MY opinion, based on decades of following all kinds of sports - it's what my eyes and brain are telling me. Those born male are typically stronger and faster than their female counterparts, especially at the highest levels of competition. Some people defending the rights of trans athletes might not want to accept it, but it's true. So in many, if not most, cases it becomes an unfair advantage. It just is.

    Is it unfortunate that some of those who now identify as women cannot (or should not) compete in some women's competitions? Sure. But sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few - the integrity of the competition is vital or the whole thing counts for nothing. We don't always get everything we think we're entitled to in life, and sometimes there's a good reason for it.
     
  16. Tug

    Tug Well-Known Member
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    Is being stronger and faster all it takes to be elite?

    Is all it takes to be stronger and faster is being born that way?

    You’re discounting the mental portion of athletics as well as effort.
     
  17. MoJo

    MoJo It bees that way sometimes...
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    This is untrue for a man transitioning into a woman, unless maybe they were transitioned as a child.
     
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  18. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    There needs to be way more research done, including on a sport by sport basis, but for distance running this isn't true based on the current data we have. The study on it is why the IOC and other bodies changed their regulations in '15-16.

    Can skip the parts about the scientist herself and focus on the research discussion if cramped for time. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/201...nsitions-alter-athletic-performance-including
     
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  19. Tug

    Tug Well-Known Member
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    It’s really debatable and needs to be defined as to what makes an athletic advantage on a per sport basis.
     
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  20. paulski

    paulski Well-Known Member

    Not at all. I've played competitive sport for the last 30 years (at an average level) so I know full well that mental strength and determination often separates the winners from the losers. Hell, at least half of the tennis matches I've lost over the years have been my fault, not due to the superiority of my opponent.

    But I also know that most of those playing any kind of elite sport are usually naturally competitive and driven, myself included. Anyone that tastes any kind of success has it in them - it comes with the territory, regardless of your gender.
     
  21. paulski

    paulski Well-Known Member

    Incidentally, I'm glad we're back to actually discussing the topic rather than whatever TF was happening on the last couple pages...
     
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  22. Tug

    Tug Well-Known Member
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    So are people that are transitioning not working just as hard to achieve their athletic goals?
     
  23. paulski

    paulski Well-Known Member

    Of course not. But the physical advantages can't be ignored. It's simply no longer a level playing field, and that's the issue many of us have about this.
     
  24. Tug

    Tug Well-Known Member
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    But athletics are not, and have never been a level playing field
     
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  25. Soup

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    Is this even being argued? I’ve seen it being brought up more from posters that are more on the liberal side. They’re introducing it to this conversation as if it’s everyone’s reasoning for not wanting to allow it.
     
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  26. MoJo

    MoJo It bees that way sometimes...
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    That's true, but any sport where increased body and muscle mass, bone density, bone structure, organ size (heart, lungs) and connective tissue strength matters is probably going to favor a transgendered woman over a natural woman. Those attributes may be reduced but won't be eliminated.

    I'm kind of curious to see how it plays out, so why not.
     
  27. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    MoJo brought up "fraud" but admittedly he didn't think it'd be a major issue, other people seemed to be responding to the Charlie Kirk tweet and lech implications early in the thread.
     
  28. Tug

    Tug Well-Known Member
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    If people think this situation is occurring enough that it is causing the downfall of women’s sports, yes that is the argument being made.

    Fwiw in another thread discussing this indoor Connecticut track meet (why?) people were worried about the likelihood of someone transitioning to receive Women Owned business advantages.

    The idea that anyone is going to give up their identity for such advantages is so absurd to me. These people still have to work to earn their accomplishments.

    Average male athletes aren’t going to say “wow I can beat women, I’m gong change my identity and spend a fortune on reassignment surgery and be ostracized by a bulk of society so that I can compete in that event”
     
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  29. paulski

    paulski Well-Known Member

    Deleted - see below.
     
  30. paulski

    paulski Well-Known Member

    Come on man, we're starting to go around in circles now.

    By your argument, we should just throw open all competition to all genders, because that kind of thing doesn't matter. Problem is, I don't see women beating the men in too many sports (except maybe rhythmic gymnastics and synchronized swimming).

    Anyway, it's 3 in the morning so I've had enough discussion for now. Off to bed for me.
     
  31. Soup

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    Again I don't think you see anyone in this thread who should be taking seriously making this argument.

    And you know that just because people aren't making the decision to transition for that reason that the advantage can still exist right?
     
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  32. Soup

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    Using the argument "not all men are on the same playing field" is such a weak ass argument.
     
  33. Tug

    Tug Well-Known Member
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    There are a number of disadvantages associated with transitioning.

    Ignoring the point that those people still have to earn their way to that spot
     
  34. Soup

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    I realize that, but what does that have to do with anything sports related?
     
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  35. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    did you read the NIH article

    it does a good job of explaining why that is a very valid argument when we're cherry picking what hormone level, or insert X here, value is the bar
     
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  36. Tug

    Tug Well-Known Member
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    Do athletic events exist in a vacuum outside of society and it’s related pressures?
     
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  37. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    not to start a tangent but it's definitely interesting to see people so invested in the idea of "fairness" in athletics, especially with how squishy all the data is, but you can't get 1/100th the intensity of feelings regarding fairness in other aspects of life when the evidence is much more obvious
     
  38. Tug

    Tug Well-Known Member
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    Also that people that likely have no interest in women’s athletics advocating for the sanctity of those sports while also employing laissez-faire free market policy in all other situations is absurd
     
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  39. Soup

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    You don't think there's enough data that show the development difference of male and female bodies?

    And really dude? Not to start a tangent, but it's exactly what you're doing.
     
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  40. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    i'm not even going that far with my assumptions, its just always fascinating what sparks intense cultural interest (and gets repurposed into red meat for the right wing propaganda outlets) in a very micro issue
     
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  41. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    Pre and post transition related to performance, no not really. I'm a broken record in here, but actually look at the data and research on this. It's not as simple as people try to make it out to be.

    It's only a tangent if you dive on it, but this topic may be the best example of the ability for something to become partisan jet fuel on a mostly benign issue that the values people hold sacred can be directly laid over much more destructive issues. I'm not saying you can't care about both at all, but the intensity levels always come off as jarring when you wander into the topics. Yes I understand I'm outrage auditing which is dumb to do and a dead end, I just find it interesting.
     
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  42. Soup

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    You keep saying there's not enough data, yet keep pointing to this research as the gospel on the matter when it covers only such a tiny portion of the sporting world. Not to mention a sport that involves no contact, and one that the gap between male and female is the smallest.
     
  43. Redav

    Redav My favorite meat is hot dog
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    Always weird when people suddenly care deeply about fairness in women's sports to the point they want to prevent something that there's not much evidence is even happening
     
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  44. Shock Linwood

    Shock Linwood Well-Known Member
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    This was his first post in this thread.

    6 pages and 50 posts later he’s still writing verbose tome-esque posts.

    [​IMG]

    :banderas:
     
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  45. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    I've said 900 times that we don't have enough information to paint with the broad strokes people try to. That's it. We need more research on a sport by sport basis to determine if there is or if its significant enough that trans women have an advantage.
     
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  46. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    This is why I don't ignore your accounts tbh, your threads can have decent discussions at times if people dodge the charlie kirk tweets.
     
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  47. The Banks

    The Banks TMB's Alaskan
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    It's literally one of the top indicators of a Trump voter.
     
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  48. The Banks

    The Banks TMB's Alaskan
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    What are those issues?
     
  49. electronic

    electronic Moderately-Known Member
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    It is very telling how many folks’ initial response is something along the lines of “of course trans women have a huge advantage, are you kidding me,” but then can’t point to any actual evidence beyond anecdotes.
     
  50. Soup

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    So you disagree that men are physically stronger/faster to women genetically?
     
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