Or will it not happen? Do people think Pep's winning is merely a product of the players, and that Mourinho needs time to settle in with Madrid (even though he never stays settled anywhere)? In the Clasicos it seems Pep has been the tactical wizard of the two. Mourinho still can't figure out a system to beat Barca.
to be fair, no one really has figured out a system to beat this barca team (I'd argue that Arsene has had a great plan that has been derailed by bad luck, which you cant really come back from against a team like Barca) Pep is a little unlucky that he inherited the most talented team in the world with a once in a generation player, and so he doesn't get credit for his tactics, which are really quite good when it comes to being a better manager Jose, I think he Pep would have to go win with a different club/group of players before many would consider them equals
I think that's part of the reason Pep wants to eventually head somewhere else. That day is going to suck.
Posted: Sunday December 11, 2011 11:24AM ; Updated: Sunday December 11, 2011 3:06PM Jonathan Wilson>INSIDE SOCCER More ColumnsEmail Jonathan Wilson There are still those, remarkably, who ask whether tactics really matter, still those who persist with the Luddite insistence that the best players will win out come what may. No matter that Lionel Messi never produces his Barcelona form for Argentina or that Dani Alves regularly flounders for Brazil, Barcelona, these flat-earthers keep saying, win because they have the best players. What happened in the Bernabeu on Saturday, surely, will disabuse them. Good players are important, of course, but this was a game turned on a tactical shift, a game Barcelona won because Pep Guardiola came up with a formation to which Jose Mourinho could not find an answer. For the first quarter of the game, Barca was rattled. Real Madrid, slightly surprisingly starting not with a 4-3-3 but with a 4-2-3-1, pressed hard and fast, often an effective line of five bearing down on the man in possession, with just Lassana Diarra (used as a midfield anchor and not, as many had expected, as a right back, where Fabio Coentrao fought an increasingly vain battle to stop Andres Iniesta) left to support the back four. It was the speed of that pressing, allied to an ill-conceived and ill-executed pass from Victor Valdes and some doziness from Gerard Pique, that led to Real Madrid's opener, and it also prevented Barca developing anything like its usual fluency or rhythm early on. Barca's system was a little odd, resembling less the familiar 4-3-3 with a false nine than a 4-4-1-1 or perhaps a 4-3-2-1. Alexis Sanchez, beginning to the left, worked across the forward line, with Lionel Messi less a false nine than an orthodox 10, tucked behind him. Cesc Fabregas had what was presumably intended as a free role, but he often seemed too advanced, denying Xavi and Iniesta the simple short passing options on which they thrive. In those opening stages, Real looked dominant and, frankly, it seemed the title was already won, that it was time to invoke the Three-Year Rule of the great Hungarian coach Bela Guttmann and point out how rarely even the very best sides, and particularly those based on intense pressing, sustain their success into a fourth season. But midway through the half, Guardiola made the tactical switch that turned the game and, perhaps, the season. Dani Alves was pushed forward into an attacking right-sided midfield role, with Carles Puyol moving over to right back, a more naturally defensive presence to stifle Cristiano Ronaldo, who was further neutered by the way Alves was able to prevent Marcelo getting forward to support him. Ronaldo's contribution, while not overly significant early on, dwindled to zero after that, one badly misplaced header and a couple of unsuccessful free-kicks his only notably involvement in the second half. By the end, Mourinho had shifted him to the right, away from the attentions of Puyol, but by then the game was lost. That meant Sergio Busquets dropping into the back four, although he continued to step out into midfield. In turn, Xavi and Fabregas fell deeper, with Iniesta going wider to the left, Messi floating in a trequartista position, and Sanchez becoming the central forward. It was the triangular interchange of Alves, so much better as an attacking wide man who makes the odd tackle than as an orthodox fullback, Sanchez and Messi that proved key in an attacking sense. That was seen most obviously with the third goal, a superb break begun when Pique won possession and fed Iniesta, who darted through two challenges before giving the ball to Messi. He laid it on for Alves, whose cross was perfect for Fabregas, arriving late, to score with a diving header. The equalizer came from Messi dropping deep away from any markers, picking up possession and surging forward to tee up Sanchez. In the Super Cup, Mourinho had used Ricardo Carvalho to track the Argentine, but the fact he was not a false nine here and had Sanchez ahead of him meant the two center backs had to stay in place. Perhaps if Mourinho had used three holding midfielders, one of them could have tracked Messi, but he opted for the extra creator in Mesut Ozil who could facilitate the high press -- and for 20 minutes or so, he seemed to have got it right. Just as important as the Messi-Alves-Sanchez triangle was the battle between Ozil and Busquets. Dropping in to the back four gave Busquets more time and space and allowed him to initiate moves in the way he usually does, away from the intentions of Ozil. Leaving the opposing playmaker free is a gamble, of course, but it worked here, not least because Ozil is not a particularly quick distributor, almost an old-fashioned No. 10 who takes a second or two to weigh up his options. Often that ability to create calm -- what Argentines revere as "la pausa" -- in the hurly-burly of a game is an asset; here it gave Barca breathing space, and Busquets was able to step out and close Ozil down. This, perhaps, is the ultimate result of Guardiola's use of a back three this season: on Saturday, he played with a back three-and-a-half, with Busquets operating partly as a center back and partly as a holding midfielder, to an extent doing what fullbacks have been doing for years, and using the space afforded defenders in an attacking sense. That development was logical and could be foreseen. What is startling, though, is the juxtaposition of Busquets' role with the events of Thursday evening, when two sides -- Universidad de Chile in winning the first leg of its Copa Sudamericana final away to Liga de Quito and Rwanda in its Cecafa Cup semifinal win over Sudan -- used a 3-1-4-2. There is, it might be added, a common source in that Guardiola and Universidad de Chile's coach Jorge Sampaoli, are both devotees of Marcelo Bielsa. Perhaps that is the future, revealed on three continents in the space of 48 hours. More prosaically, Saturday was about Barca reasserting itself, about showing it has not gone stale. Guttmann always insisted that after three years at a club either the manager or the players had to be got rid of to prevent staleness and complacency. Guardiola has tinkered with personnel, but more crucially, his side is still evolving tactically, and that gives him options like the one he invoked on Saturday.
I've always thought Jose was overrated when it comes to tactics. I've always seen him as a more of a SAF type that builds a great squad and throws them out to sink or swim. Yesterday highlighted Pep's ability to make amazing in game tactical changes. I think he already is a better tactician but as tne said Jose is always going to be considered better because he's had success at three different teams. I really hope Rafa ends up at PSG and they meet in the UCL next season because I would love to see what tactics he came up with the shut them down. I just don't know what you would have to do to stop Barca. If you man mark their players they will just run you ragged and cut you apart when your players have lost their legs. I know Zonal Marking is what people say you have to do against them but I think it is even worse because their speciality is confusing the defense and having defenders lose who they're marking. I believe Pep has shown through his own tactics what may work though. You have to do what Pep has done with Mascherano recently and Yaya in the 09 UCL final and drop CDMs into defense. Barca isn't going to go out there and long ball you and try to beat you with headers, so the english style CBs are useless against them. All Barca will do is take advantage of the lack of athleticism at the back. Put two extra athletic midfielders on the pitch and if Barca beats you with a header give them credit for being unstoppable. I think Alex Song and Lucas would be the perfect pairing for this task. From there you need a striker like Van Persie who can play that false 9 role to perfection and two pacy wingers who can score. One Nani and One Walcott esque winger on each side would be perfect for this role. Behind them I would pair a Xabi Alonso and a Jack Wilshere type (who although he doesn't score a lot I think his style of play suits it well because he can attack the box if the opportunity presents itself). Then you see if you can soak up the pressure from Barca and hit them on the counter. You have essentially 4 guys on your side who are comfortable playing a holding roll (Song, Lucas, Alonso, Wilshere) and are ball winners. You then have 7 midfielders in a condensed space who should be comfortable playing a pass and move style of play so there is less of a chance of one of your players being caught in possession. The ideal scenario is to suck Alves into your half and for Lucas or song to win the ball and for Xabi or Wilshere to hit a pass over the top and hope Nani or Walcott have the pace and skill to beat the Barcelona defense. If I could combine a healthy Arsenal and Liverpool and throw in Xabi Alonso I think it could work Reina Johnson Lucas Song Enrique Xabi Alonso Wilshere Walcott Gerrard Bellamy Van Persie I think Sagna would be better defensively at RB but I like Johnson's attacking attributes and Gervinho could play LW but I haven't seen enough out of him to know his tracking back. I think Bellamy would work his socks off for 60 minutes and then bring Gervinho in fresh toward the end. This might sound crazy and will probably take a lot of criticism but I think the ethos of Barca's attack is for every player to play as a midfielder. I think this is evident with Ibra not working out and even David Villa being forced to play as a winger last year and this year being replaced by another winger in Alexis Sanchez. They consistently drop Mascherano into CB. Pique isn't a typical CB either as he plays more like a CDM. I truly believe the only way to stop them is to fight fire with fire and have midfielders who can do all aspects of the game such as defend, pass, and score the same way their players do.
Thought Jose's tactics were fine yesterday, Real got a ton of opportunities, not his fault Ronaldo can't finish an easy header or they blow 5 on 3 counters.They got through Barca's wall of pressure rather easily from what I saw, just super wasteful. I didn't watch the whole game but opportunities were both ways from what I saw. Think Real could have gone more defensive with Ramos at RB and Albiol at CB, Coentrao wasn't good. Jose has the better career. Pep has the better team right now. Don't agree with defensive mids in defense. Like Barca best with Pique-Abidal or Pique-Puyol. Not a fan of Mascherano or Busquets back there. Their next signing should be a real partner for Pique. To me the Jose-Pep battle is 2-2 so far. Jose won CL w/ Inter Pep won CL and la liga last year Jose won CDR. That's how I measure it so far.
Pep has a ridiculous squad right now, a monkey could take Barca the distance. I understand Jose has pretty much the same ridiculous amount of talent, but he has won with teams that aren't as talented as his current squad at Real. It isn't fair to blame Pep for having such a great team to work with but I feel he will never get his just due unless he repeats his success at another club.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W8Ie4MyRX0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42cjGa3jLqo (video for Watson, Wilshere and Kos vs Barcelona you had me watson until you included Bellamy, but I do agree that having athletic cbs is crucial I really like the tactics that Arsenal have used the past two years in the UCL, even though it hasnt worked we started out normal line-up, just shifted ultra conservative for the first 60 minutes, do everything possible to limit the damage, let Barca attack, soak up pressure, and then start to press and attack more if you look at the home fixtures for Arsenal, both went down this path, the first culminated in a 2-2 draw where the pace of Theo made all the difference, and the second was the 2-1 win now this strategy fell apart on the away leg, the first game we were missing out 6 best players, and we had no chance, the next game we were in a similar position as the home matches until RVPs red card so this is how I would play Barca (if I was Arsenal and healthy) ----------------------------------Szcz-------------------------------------- Sagna---------------------Kos----------tv5-------------------------Santos ----------------------------Song-----Wilshere------------------------------ --------------------------------Ramsey------------------------------------- Theo-----------------------------RvP--------------------------------Gervinho I hate playing Ramsey, but without another CDM he is stuck playing Wilshere/Song is the key combo, Wilshere is vital because he can keep the ball and dribble past Barca's pressing, Song would be charged with marking Messi in the middle, and passing him off to the wing backs when he pushes wide Theo and Gervinho would drop back pretty deep to help mark up, play ten men behind the ball, break on the counter with Gervinho and Theo's pace, then once we get to the 70th minute start to press a little more and become more adventurous the key for the counter will be RVP dropping from his striker position and finding space in between the backline and the midfield, the area where Busquets has been playing so well, if he can win that battle he will have Theo and Gervinho running off him through the middle, where their pace should be enough all of that, and hope that RVP finishes his chances like he has been
Have to realize also that Pep was the one molding a lot of these guys. That's part of the reason he wanted Cesc so fucking bad even though it seemed like overkill. Fabregas and Messi are ridiculous together.
Depends on how they feel about their B coach. I think they fact that they promoted Pep instead of giving it to Mourinho (who thought he was getting it and planned on having talks with Pep about being his assistant, hence all the butthurt).