White Lotus - HBO

Discussion in 'TV Board' started by NYGator, Jul 24, 2021.

  1. Drew Swinney Esq

    Drew Swinney Esq Successful Attorney in Atlanta (Not Parody)
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    Holy shit at the suitcase scene. Had a feeling Armond was getting stabbed when he put the knife on the night stand, but did not expect that.

    Fucking Rachel.

    Basically everything came down to the rich gonna rich, and the rich stay the rich.
     
  2. Truman

    Truman Well-Known Member
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    [​IMG]
     
  3. MtOread

    MtOread chopped and scrooged
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  4. DUCKMOUTH

    DUCKMOUTH People don’t you know, don’t you know
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    Am I just flat out wrong and thinking possibly her saying the happy thing and hug was more of acceptance that she will be fine and he is also moving on?

    I lean to that she is back with him and she has accepted her fate, but I feel like maybe it could be interpreted the other way.
     
  5. Truman

    Truman Well-Known Member
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    Yes I think youre flat out wrong. She sold her dignity for the lifestyle and class stature
     
  6. Ty Webb

    Ty Webb Living rent free in Jigga's head
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    A small part of me thinks he might've changed. First his wife called him out for his horrible behavior towards Armond and then he has the realization post-stabbing that him being a colossal douche is the sole reason another man is dead. The look on Daddario's face when they hug makes me think this is probably wrong and Truman 's statement above is correct.
     
  7. NYGator

    NYGator Well-Known Member
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    No fucking way! That's just white guilt sympathizing with a white character.
     
  8. steamengine

    steamengine I don’t want to press one for English!
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    I miss Armond already
     
  9. Ty Webb

    Ty Webb Living rent free in Jigga's head
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    lol...I could see killing someone be a hitting rock bottom moment for many people. Maybe not for you.
     
  10. NYGator

    NYGator Well-Known Member
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    That would go completely against what the show was about though. There was no rock bottom. It was 100% about a take on white privilege where they came, they left a wake of destruction and they left to assume their lives.
     
  11. MrOutlaw

    MrOutlaw Director corp medical
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    And they seemingly had their issues “fixed” by the very people they step all over throughout the show.
     
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  12. IvanTheTerrible

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    He was a shithead. But he was our shithead.
     
  13. IvanTheTerrible

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    Does anyone else find it interesting that the two indigenous people just fade to black, and we don't fully know what happens to them? (Obviously, Kai goes to jail for assault and robbery)
     
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  14. Truman

    Truman Well-Known Member
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    That's the theme of the show. Theyre just cannon fodder for the wealthy who get to hop back on the plane and leave it in the past.

    It's one of the many subtle things that makes this so so good.
     
  15. NYGator

    NYGator Well-Known Member
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    Again, intentional. They just don't matter in order for the show to drive home that point. That's the harsh lesson. That's why I can't accept Shane reaching rock bottom. He fucking created the situation that killed the person. Are we supposed to sympathize with him? No fucking way. I have sympathy for Tai for sure though.
     
  16. IvanTheTerrible

    IvanTheTerrible Well-Known Member
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    Oh, I definitely don't think Shane changed at all. He's just in shock at the airport.
     
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  17. Pelican

    Pelican COOL huh
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    Yeah I was wondering about the pregnant girl from the first episode and how she never resurfaced. But it makes total sense now given the show’s direction.
     
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  18. afb

    afb Spoiler Alert: Pawnee, IN may not be on a map.
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    I feel like a couple people ITT should watch the "inside the episode" at the end
     
  19. BurtGummer

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    Armond absolutely nailed his last dinner service! What a swan song!
     
  20. southlick

    southlick "Better Than You"
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  21. enjj

    enjj Well-Known Member
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    So… was the poo scene real? Did he really drop a two in the suitcase?
     
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  22. identikit

    identikit Well-Known Member
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    2 x
     
  23. Upton^2

    Upton^2 blocked just a park away, but I can't really say
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    what do you mean by real? Are you asking if the actor actually pooped during filming?
     
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  24. Duval

    Duval On a gravy train with biscuit wheels
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    I think that’s part of it, but there’s also a theme of being trapped, especially for those without the means to get out of their situation. Also, it shows how hard it is for most to really forge their own path, especially when financial comfort is on the other end of the spectrum.

    Shane scares Rachel both financially and physically, and she’s too scared to go all in with her plan to leave.

    it’s all about the haves and the have nots, just like Paula accepted her lot, and chose to bail on Kai instead of confessing.
     
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  25. enjj

    enjj Well-Known Member
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    Yup. If it was all him he deserves an award.
     
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  26. wes tegg

    wes tegg I'm a Guy's guy, guys.
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    From Mike White:

    I was so conflicted about the fact that Rachel decides to go back to Shane in the end.
    I always knew she’d go back to him. There was something about her, even in the way she’s approaching him; it’s like someone who wants to get a response. Honestly, it feels true to life for me. I’ve seen peers who may not have been in this exact situation. She’s started to feel the limits of what she thinks she’s capable of, and it’s the reality of the seduction of a lifestyle. Some people read it as cynical; to me, the thing that I feel about Shane is that even though he is a privileged asshole, he does really love her. Even if it’s just an idea of her.

    What I was trying to do with Jake [Lacy]was like, [Shane] may say obnoxious things to [Rachel], but he really is into her. And he’s the kind of guy where as long as he’s waiting, it’s okay. It’s only when he doesn’t get what he wants that he shows his douchebaggery. Maybe it’s a little bit of a portrait of mediocrity or someone who’s weak. I don’t know, I feel like when I see her go back to him, the way I talked about it with Jake was that, in that moment, he’s like a little boy lost. There’s a little bit of pathos there for me.

    Maybe I’m being condescending to them, but I’ve seen it in my life. There is a powerful pull of money and lifestyle. In L.A., you see it all the time. In a way, she’s naïve; she wants to be independent and have power in the relationship, but she doesn’t have the money, she doesn’t have the power. I do see women making that choice sometimes.
     
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  27. allothersnsused

    allothersnsused Wow that’s crazy
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    Reads to me like he lost a girlfriend to a Jake. But I’m satisfied with the explanation.
     
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  28. wes tegg

    wes tegg I'm a Guy's guy, guys.
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    He’s very gay.
     
  29. Upton^2

    Upton^2 blocked just a park away, but I can't really say
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    Link to the article?
     
  30. wes tegg

    wes tegg I'm a Guy's guy, guys.
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  31. NYGator

    NYGator Well-Known Member
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    It’s 100% a realistic outcome. The only thing I disagree with him about is conflating the Idea of loving someone with actually loving someone. It’s sloppy framing, but I get it’s just an interview and he probably misspoke. I think he should say that in the bargain there is also something about her that he really covets and is important to him…having a trophy wife. Her beauty and the pretense that he has an obedient adoring wife who looks up to him is important for how he thinks others view him in his circle of power. The idea that she could leave him and make him look the fool was what upset him. He could care less though about her as a person. It’s how she looks to others that matters and how his possession of her makes him feel about himself. He loves having her as a possession is a more appropriate framing to me.
     
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  32. wes tegg

    wes tegg I'm a Guy's guy, guys.
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    I think you’re oversimplifying it. I think he can love the *idea of her* as a person. I don’t think he wanted her to be a trophy wife. He admired the smart, independent, bleeding heart attributes even if he didn’t really want her to be a smart, independent, bleeding heart. Like nearly every one of the privileged characters, he wanted to have his cake and eat it too.
     
  33. NYGator

    NYGator Well-Known Member
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    I’m not saying he didn’t love the idea of her. I’m saying that it’s not the same thing as loving her and they were conflated as being somewhat the same thing by Mike White.

    I also don’t think he loved the smart, independent or bleeding heart attributes, as the first thing he tried to do on the honeymoon was tell her to disregard those things now because they no longer matter if they can’t serve you monetarily. In his mind, she achieved the goal, which was to be rich through him, and those things had no value at this point. Her value to him was as an object to possess and make him feel better about himself. What gives you the idea that he cared about any of that?

    He was literally hitting on the two vapid underaged girls while on his honeymoon. She means nothing to him as a person outside of how she makes him look.
     
    #133 NYGator, Aug 17, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2021
  34. Tarpon Nole

    Tarpon Nole Well-Known Member
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    Started watching this.

    The end of episode 4 hahahahah
     
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  35. wes tegg

    wes tegg I'm a Guy's guy, guys.
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    I disagree. He views himself as more than that. He’s aware of what a trophy wife is and views himself as better than that. He thinks he’s smarter than he is (see reading the same Malcolm Gladwell book the whole show while everyone else reads something different every episode and the Cornell hat), and thinks she validates that. His whole conversation with the young girls is projection — “are you really reading those books?” when he’s 20 pages in.
     
  36. NYGator

    NYGator Well-Known Member
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    I feel like I saw an entirely different person than you saw. I saw no moments of self realization. The things you reference seem to align more with how I see him...it is all for show. He literally denies her from having her own identity, and dismisses what she does and what she cares about as a waste of time.

    The Cornell hat is literally another trophy that represents a status for an education that was probably acquired based on who he knew as opposed to what he knew. The mom repeatedly described the wedding from the standpoint of it being a trophy and how it made her look as opposed to what it meant. It’s all for show.
     
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  37. wes tegg

    wes tegg I'm a Guy's guy, guys.
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    There’s no self-realization; that’s the point. There’s more to it than just thinking she’s hot and that makes him look cool. That would require more awareness than he has. He denies her having her own identity immediately after saying he supports her career. He wants to think she’s objective and deep, proving his value, but doesn’t really want her to be objective and deep because that would actually make her hate him. Like I said, he wants to have his cake and eat it, too.
     
    #137 wes tegg, Aug 17, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2021
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  38. NYGator

    NYGator Well-Known Member
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    This all supports what I originally said. My original point was only to say that the idea of love is not the same as love, and I took exception to Mike White glossing over the creation of a false equivalency between the two.
     
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  39. wes tegg

    wes tegg I'm a Guy's guy, guys.
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    I think you misunderstood White’s point and have oversimplified Shane to disagree with it. Even if it is rooted in his own need for validation/affirmation, he still believes he loves her even if the “her” he loves is what he wants her to be rather than who she is. It’s not some grand statement on “what is love.”
     
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  40. NYGator

    NYGator Well-Known Member
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    I understood his point. I just took exception to creating a false equivalency between love and the idea of love, because I think the difference Is important as it relates to what motivates him. I agree that he absolutely loved the idea of being married to her. I just think in the end there is no way for the idea of love to fulfill her in the long-term. It was more of a nuance that I objected to.

    I am not sure how I can oversimplify Shane. I still would consider Shane pretty simple and obvious. That said, simple may mean something different to me than it does to you. I see it as most of his motivations come from surface level appearances. Maybe shallow is a better word to describe it than simple. He literally is a man baby.
     
  41. wes tegg

    wes tegg I'm a Guy's guy, guys.
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    I think you did miss his point. He’s not equating loving someone and the idea of loving someone. He’s saying that Shane loved her, even if he’s wrong about who “her” is.

    And where does anyone say it will fulfill her long term? Of course it won’t.
     
  42. NYGator

    NYGator Well-Known Member
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    Here is the exact quote...
    "he does really love her. Even if it’s just an idea of her."

    ...and that is what I object to. I struggle with trying to conflate loving someone with the idea of loving someone. Shane actually does love the idea of her. IMO, he absolutely does not love her or even care who she really is. I just don't think those two things are the same. His idea in this case is very different than how she presented herself and how she saw herself.

    I added the fulfillment part, because it demonstrates the separation between the idea and actual love not matching. It's also what we saw in terms of her unhappiness. She knew that she was his idea of a trophy wife, and she didn't want to be that at one point.
     
  43. NYGator

    NYGator Well-Known Member
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    On an entirely other note, there were some great lines in that episode that completely got dwarfed by the ending 15 minutes. Jennifer Coolidge was so uncomfortable, bit also so good.

    "That chaise is taken, but you’re a very pretty man."

    and...

    "Death is the last immersive experience I haven't tried."
     
  44. Upton^2

    Upton^2 blocked just a park away, but I can't really say
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    The Gladwell book throughout was one of my favorites parts of the show. Perfectly fits the Gladwell demo
     
  45. wes tegg

    wes tegg I'm a Guy's guy, guys.
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    The bolded isn't saying the same thing. You're changing what the quote means.
     
  46. NYGator

    NYGator Well-Known Member
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    I disagree entirely. I would have been fine had he just said he loves "an idea of her." The fact that he started by saying he does really love her is what I strongly disagree with. He doesn't even appear to know her, and likewise I am not sure she knew him, and when she started to realize who he was is when she got cold feet. It felt like he was trying to justify the idea of her being a valid reason to love someone even if the idea is objectively false. I guess in the end she was willing to play the part of the idea of herself.
     
  47. Arrec Bardwin

    Arrec Bardwin He ain’t me, he can’t be me
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    Quote of the show from Zahn.

    “Obviously imperialism is bad. You shouldn’t kill people, take their land and make them dance”
     
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  48. wes tegg

    wes tegg I'm a Guy's guy, guys.
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  49. scarlet_tacos

    scarlet_tacos Well-Known Member
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    i want more Armond! best character on tv in a long time for me. I work in hospitality and appreciate the ridiculous requests you sometimes get from people like Shane or his Mom. Haven't pooped in anyone's stuff yet.
     
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  50. NYGator

    NYGator Well-Known Member
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    That would be very challenging given the ending.