Winds of Winter will never be finished, fuck you George Martin

Discussion in 'Game of Thrones (ASOIAF)' started by Illinihockey, Aug 5, 2015.

  1. zeberdee

    zeberdee read it? I own it. but no, I have not read it
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    if you're looking for someone with a similar writing style to GRRM, I would recommend James S.A. Corey. two guys, and they write more sci-fi than fantasy, but the one used to be GRRM's assistant and they use the same shifting first-person style from ASOIAF in their Expanse series. (which also has a show based on it that is great).
     
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  2. bigpig

    bigpig cultofwhatever.com
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  3. Nelson

    Nelson Can somebody please get Ja Rule on the phone
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    I’d be happy enough if he just released the bullets he gave to D&D. That way I could know what did happen in the show but won’t in the books, so then I can make up head canon about what George would do.
     
  4. Imurhuckleberry

    Imurhuckleberry Avid spectator of windmill warriors
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    Beat me too it. That said, I'll certainly buy and return on audible.com
     
  5. CC_Nole

    CC_Nole Well-Known Member

    Agreed. Question though: I stopped reading/posting on this board around episode 5 so I’m curious what the consensus is between book readers on whether the ending will be the same. The rational part of my brain wants to say no considering all of the changes that have been made to characters and storylines since literally season two; along with the fact that D&D are hacks of the highest nature. However, the other part of my brain just wants to move on and stop caring about this damn series so what’s the point. Anyways, Stormlight Archive here I come.
     
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  6. xec

    xec Well-Known Member
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    I doubt the storyline endings are the same. I’m not even sure the storylines will closely parallel.

    I’m interested in the books because GRRM is a much better story teller than D&D are. The show was well done up until it reached the last book’s ending. After that it made for nice entertainment and was visually stunning.... but the scripts were not compelling.

    It’s sad that the show’s final storylines will be canon because GRRM will not finish the books.
     
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  7. bigpig

    bigpig cultofwhatever.com
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    I think many of the "ends" will be there but how we get there will be very different.

    Bran becoming King, Arya sailing west, Jon going back to live beyond the wall - I think all of those things happen

    I think Dany goes bad but not at all the way the show did it.
     
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  8. RonBurgundy

    RonBurgundy Well-Known Member

    So I think D&D’s ending is what GRRM has in mind. Their execution was fucking horrible paper thin, awful supporting dialogue and character development just stopped cold, and they rushed every major plot point. Major reveals, like Jon’s parentage, was seemingly ignored. All that shitty writing lead to an ending and climax everyone hated.

    I have no doubt that GRRM could have executed that ending and made it A) believable and B) rewarding
     
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  9. Imurhuckleberry

    Imurhuckleberry Avid spectator of windmill warriors
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    God I hope you're wrong.
     
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  10. CC_Nole

    CC_Nole Well-Known Member

    Agree with most of what you said. Although, I’d say that season 5 was awful and that saying it was an adaptation of AFFC/ADWD is a farce, but I digress.
     
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  11. CC_Nole

    CC_Nole Well-Known Member

    I'd say that your opinion is similar to what I've read from quite a few book readers. I think I have to break it up into two separate thought processes. One, did the show do it's ending well? Obviously not and you hit the nail on the head regarding the problems plaguing the show for years. It was such an injustice to every character and storyline. Two, if this is GRRM's ending is it satisfying? I'd personally say no. There is no doubt that GRRM is a great writer; however, I think there is a lot more that goes into a satisfying ending than the author "taking his time to get there." The ending honestly feels like circular storytelling at its worst. If I'm being cynical I'd say that this is GRRM's ending and the fact that he isn't going to finish goes hand in hand. Due to his gardening style, he can't make sense of how to get to his ending based on where things stand at the end of ADWD so he's just going to stubbornly not finish.
     
    #911 CC_Nole, Jan 11, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  12. bigpig

    bigpig cultofwhatever.com
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    I suppose it's possible that George was so frustrated with D&D that he told them a bunch of shit, knowing he was planning on something entirely different.

    Everything they did in s7 and 8 was based off a big convo they had with him after s6
     
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  13. vander02

    vander02 Well-Known Member
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    My theory about the ending is that the broad strokes were GRRM... but everything from season 6-8 to get there would have been completely different. Like, everything.

    I think the biggest mistake was dropping the Aegon/fAegon storyline because Danys breaking bad only makes sense if something like Dany saving the north and Westeros happens... only to find the city and Throne and southron kingdoms pledged to her “brother”. Another male usurper put in her path is one too many and they fight it out and she loses it a bit. That’s the only way I can get there without that part being as awful as D&D wrote it
     
  14. CC_Nole

    CC_Nole Well-Known Member

    Where did you read about a big convo after season 6? The only thing I’ve ever seen was that sometime around season 3 they had conversations about major plot points that would happen once they inevitably passed the books. If the endings are different I’d say it’s not because GRRM fed them shit its that they ignored most of what he told them to “subvert expectations” and do their own thing. Shit, they’ve low key been doing that for the majority of the shows run so it’s not out of the realm of possibility.
     
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  15. CC_Nole

    CC_Nole Well-Known Member

    I understand where you are coming from but it’s really, really hard for me to reconcile that timeline. It was hard enough to accept that the battle at King’s Landing took place after the Others were defeated in the show and I’d find it even harder to believe in the books considering how many characters and plot lines that were cut from the show that will be converging on King’s Landing in TWOW.
     
    #915 CC_Nole, Jan 11, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
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  16. bigpig

    bigpig cultofwhatever.com
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    It might've been after season 5.

    They definitely weren't worried about passing the books in season 3.

    It was the convo that told them the three big holy shit moments. I guess it was before s6 since 2 of them were the burning of Shireen and Hold the Door
     
  17. skiedfrillet

    skiedfrillet It's not a lie if you believe it.
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    Idk I always thought this scene was pretty awesome. The music building up as it transitions from the baby to Jon’s face was incredible

     
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  18. Spontaneous Cumbustion

    Spontaneous Cumbustion Well-Known Member
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    Season 6 was really good. It was good because D&D stayed with the 10 episode heavy dialogue story telling that made GOT great. Seasons 7 and 8 were complete rush jobs that should have been spread out over 2-3 full 10 episode seasons. If they did that then the current story line would have been a lot better and more believable. Instead they rushed everything because they were tired of thrones/wanted to do something else and it completely backfired on them. They lost their civil war HBO show, lost their Star Wars franchise and are now widely regarded as complete hacks.
     
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  19. Doc Louis

    Doc Louis Well-Known Member
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    I think Martin didn't have an ending and didn't fucking care after he got paid. He probably just told them to do whatever because he was too lazy to finish writing.
     
  20. Voodoo

    Voodoo Fan of: Notre Dame
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  21. Henry Blake

    Henry Blake No Springsteen is leaving this house!

     
  22. Mr Bulldops

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    I’m not defending D&D but all the blame wasn’t on them, a big part should be on GRRM for the last 2 seasons. At the start, GRRM told them the bullet points of the ending he had planned and expected to have it done by the time they got to it. Well he is a lazy fuck and it wasn’t done so D&D had to fill in a page worth of bullet points into 2 seasons of TV. It’s why there wasn’t full 10 episodes per season and why the tone changed so drastically between the first seasons and the last. D&D are TV writers not fantasy book writers so left to fill in the ending themselves they did it as TV writers do, with shallow characters and big action set pieces.
     
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  23. zeberdee

    zeberdee read it? I own it. but no, I have not read it
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    fuck GRRM, but I'm not giving writers a pass for being bad writers. and the length of the season was by their own design they could have taken as much time as they wanted to finish the story, they chose to rush it.
     
  24. Illinihockey

    Illinihockey Well-Known Member
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    If he ever finishes this book, I don't know if I even have the appetite to read it anymore
     
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  25. LKRFN88jp

    LKRFN88jp Aces!
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    This is where I am. I read all five of them in 2012 and always said I'd do a re-read before book 6. I have no desire to do that anymore. Eight years later no less.
     
  26. Voodoo

    Voodoo Fan of: Notre Dame
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    George and D&D all suck.
     
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  27. bigpig

    bigpig cultofwhatever.com
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    George can be incredible. The first three ASOIAF are amazing. Things stumble s bit for the next two and...well that's it
     
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  28. Sticky

    Sticky Well-Known Member
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    I think Dance is really good. Jaimes chapters in feast are great other than that it’s not very memorable
     
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  29. bigpig

    bigpig cultofwhatever.com
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    Yeah there are parts of Feast I loved but a lot that I thought really needed trimming. Same with Dance, though my biggest problem with it is that it's the one book out of the five that doesn't feel like it ends; it feels like it stops. It builds to a climax that never comes. And I get why: The author ran out of time and pages, but still. It feels incomplete.
     
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  30. CC_Nole

    CC_Nole Well-Known Member

    The biggest issue with Feast/Dance is that they just set up, set up, and set up with no payoff.

    Also, D&D have stated from very early on that they had always envisioned around 70 episodes for the series. They weren’t caught off guard by anything.

    Despite what GRRM believes you can’t make 13 quality seasons of TV off of 7 books. The ending sucked because D&D aren’t good at writing, and they were trying to pull off an ending that isn’t even good if it comes from GRRM.
     
    #930 CC_Nole, Feb 10, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
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  31. bigpig

    bigpig cultofwhatever.com
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    Agree on Feast and Dance. It's clear GRRM had a strong three part story in his head when he first started writing, with Game, Clash, and Storm all being act one. After he nixed his plan for a time-jump the whole structure of the books after act one fell apart.

    Feast and Dance, instead of being the middle act became a long-winded summary of all the time-jump was supposed to jump over. And because they were so long-winded, he didn't even get to finish them.

    So now Winds of Winter, which probably should have been the beginning of act three has to, instead serve as both the end of act two
    and the beginning AND middle of act three, if he still plans on ending the series with seven books.

    But that's all a cow's opinion anyway. A Dream of Spring will never be finished. Fuck you George.
     
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