Couple of places have mentioned the 40-man crunch as reasoning behind aggressively pursuing the potential ace trades.
Neither are in the top 100. One in top 7-15 in their organization depending on which list you look at.
And they asked us for Folty and Inciarte? Makes sense. Overnegotiated and then essentially forced to take a shitty deal.
Did they eat any of his contract? $17M/yr for an aging catcher with mediocre defense, no thanks. That is about 20% of our payroll
Could Atlanta Braves Be Willing to Trade Albies? by Alan Carpenter3 minutes agoFollow @carpengui TWEET SHARE x COMMENT An under the radar deal made back at the trading deadline could end up being the catalyst that allows the Braves a shot at Chris Sale. There’s a chance that we’ll know the answer later today, but since this rumor continues to persist – and grow, even – there are reasons to believe that the Atlanta Braves are indeed pulling out all the stops in the pursuit of Chris Sale. But what to offer? That’s obviously the key question, though I believe there are some clues to be had from the little snippets that we are hearing. Advertisement The Collection by Michael Strahan offers a classic and confident look, exclusively at JCP Shop with confidence. Ad by JCPenney What We Know… The following is certain: The Braves have to make 40-man roster adjustments by tonight in preparation for the Rule 5 draft. Lucas Sims and Max Fried are likely to be protected, but we believe that they’d like to protect at least a couple of others as well. 2 players could probably be protected without a big issue. But anything beyond that, and there’s a strong risk of losing players – without compensation. The Braves are focusing on Chris Sale. We know this from both David O’Brien and Mark Bowman. Here’s O’Brien’s take: Follow David O'Brien ✔@DOBrienAJC They're legitimately talking to White Sox about Sale, at least. Price huge, but #Braves haven't pulled back yet. https://twitter.com/Huddy_C22/status/799363271778304004 … 4:46 PM - 17 Nov 2016 1010 Retweets 1919 likes O’Brien also wrote this yesterday: The Braves have also inquired about the Rays’ Chris Archer and Athletics’ Sonny Gray, but Sale is their focus, a person familiar with the situation said. He also tweeted that Dansby Swanson is not on the table. It is quite likely that Kevin Maitan would not be either, despite some nationally known prospect watchers that believe the White Sox should rightly demand both… and as Jeff found out yesterday, Sox fans are believing those press clippings. What Can We Infer From This? If the teams are still talking, then the Braves have to be engaging with something else of high value for the White Sox… and it seems neither side is disengaging. The Braves are not alone here… there are rumblings that the Nationals are involved with the White Sox. Others likely are as well: we could guess the Yankees and Dodgers. The Red Sox maybe less so. If the Braves are indeed not willing to part with Swanson or Maitan, then they must be trying to overwhelm Chicago with “volume”. That would make some sense, given the state of their farm… and the state of the Braves’, for that matter. Complicating matters could be the White Sox’ own 40-man roster situation: 38 names as of this morning. If the Braves are attempting to offload some of their roster to Chicago, that might not work very well… though Chicago would not be likely to have the immediate danger of losing minor leagues in a Rule 5 draft should some of their go unprotected. We’ve also heard very little from Chicago about this entire topic: Follow Daryl Van Schouwen ✔@CST_soxvan Sox' Williams refuses to discuss Chris Sale trade rumors http://bit.ly/2fDJMtE via @suntimes 6:19 AM - 16 Nov 2016 Sox' Williams refuses to discuss Chris Sale trade rumors The question is how much of a rebuild are the Sox interested in staging this offseason. It has been a closely guarded secret. chicago.suntimes.com 11 Retweet 22 likes X Factor When this trade was made for Lucas Harrell and Dario Alvarez, we had no idea it could come to this. The emergence of Travis Demeritte, both as a slugger and as a defender around second base, might be the game-changer here. The Braves more-or-less consensus top prospect is now Ozzie Albies (depending on whether Swanson is still on your personal list). He is also a #12 overall prospect… on a list that Jim Callis has a hand in developing. This Fall, Demeritte has hit .261 in the Arizona Fall League with 4 homers, 4 triples, 4 doubles, and an .855 OPS… and he plays the same second base position that Albies is set to take with the Braves. But the praise Demeritte has been getting – particularly as a defender – could persuade the Braves to put Albies in the package for Chris Sale… which might very well be enough to swing a deal along with others. So between the current play of Jace Peterson and the future promise of Demeritte, John Coppolella could decide that the projected value of Sale outweighs the incremental future value of Albies over either of those other second basemen. That calculation might not be far off, either. Significantly, Albies also does not yet require 40-man roster protection, so that would help both sides when considering the logistics. The same is true for #46 overall prospect Sean Newcomb. UPDATE: As this was going to press, the following happened: Follow MiLB Roster Tracker @MiLB_Tracker #Braves have purchased the contracts of INF Johan Camargo, LHP Max Fried (@MaxFried32) and RHP Luke Sims from the minors. 10:26 AM - 18 Nov 2016 55 Retweets 77 likes This doesn’t yet change anything – this was expected, though the addition of Camargo is interesting. Projecting a Package Thus the Braves could be in the position to offer something like Albies, Newcomb, Matt Wisler, and Lucas Sims as the headliners for Sale (and not necessarily the only ones, either)… and then perhaps go even further and put in Garcia and Ruiz for Todd Frazier if they wanted to get crazy. So that’s 2 Top 100 prospects, a major leaguer, and another pitcher who has been in that Top 100 in the past (Braves’ official rankings 2, 3, 14, and 15, plus Wisler). All of them at least close to being major leagues… and likely some more. Would that be enough? If we are in that ‘crazy’ realm, the White Sox don’t even have to take Adonis Garcia: they have a couple of other third base options in Brett Lawrie and Matt Davidson… with Albies and Ruiz being the eventual heir apparents and their respective positions. Such a package could be done without completely messing up the 40-man roster issues for either club, though this would leave the ChiSox with 39 or 40 and the Braves with 34… and plenty of space to grow. MORE FROM TOMAHAWK TAKE Atlanta Braves Talking To Chicago White Sox About Lefty Chris Sale16h ago Atlanta Braves 2017 Spring Schedule20h ago Atlanta Braves News: The Morning Chop, Kate Upton Blasts MLB1 d ago Atlanta Braves Question: What If They Stop Here?1 d ago Atlanta Braves Dansby Swanson To Play For Team USA? Freddie Freeman For Canada?2d ago Reminders All of this SPECULATION revolves around Chris Sale as that seems to be the focus of most energy. There are still other pitching targets possible: notably Quitana of the White Sox, Archer or Odorizzi from the Rays, or Gray from Oakland. Thus it is still quite reasonably likely that something could get done today. But if not, then the Braves still have to be satisfied with the position they are in. They don’t have to make a deal.. but it seems clear that they would like to.
Camargo is interesting. Could be a cheap util guy at his peak. 40-man is pretty crowded now, at 39 I think.
Is the consensus Albies > Swanson by a lot? Or is it primarily projections? Truthfully I haven't seen anything but write ups and a clip here and there on Albies. I would love Sale.
That isn't the consensus at all. I haven't really seen anyone rank one over the other. I think from a marketing standpoint, Swanson is more valuable to the franchise.
The Braves Should Be Wary of Becoming the Diamondbacks by Dave Cameron - November 18, 2016 The Houston Astros have been the most aggressive team of the winter, acquiring Brian McCann, Josh Reddick, and Charlie Morton in the last few days, as they attempt to make their move from contender to division-favorite. The second most aggressive team so far? Probably the Atlanta Braves. They started off the hot stove season last week by signing Bartolo Colon and R.A. Dickey to help fill out the back of their rotation. And now, according to reports, they’re aiming for an ace. Follow Buster Olney ✔@Buster_ESPN Braves are aggressively swapping offers for starting pitchers. Rival officials think Braves and Astros will add the most help this winter. 12:32 PM - 16 Nov 2016 388388 Retweets 399399 likes More specifically, there’s this from David O’Brien of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. They’ve had talks with teams about trading for still another starter, most notably Chris Sale, 27, a native of Lakeland, Fla. The five-time All-Star left-hander is under contractual control for three more seasons at below-market rates — $38 million total in that three-year span including two option years — and has finished in the top five of the American League Cy Young Award balloting for four consecutive seasons after finishing sixth in his first season as a starter in 2012. The Braves have also inquired about the Rays’ Chris Archer and Athletics’ Sonny Gray, but Sale is their focus, a person familiar with the situation said. The price for Sale could be enormous, likely a package including multiple top prospects. The Braves have said they’re not at a point in their rebuild where they’re ready to trade top prospects to fill in gaps, but to get an ace they seem at least willing to consider changing that plan. On the one hand, this shouldn’t be that surprising: GM John Coppolella is a strong believer in the value of starting pitching, and especially so, in the value of frontline aces. This the kind of pitcher the Braves are always going to be looking for under his watch, and given that they’ve been outspoken that they want to win sooner than later, it shouldn’t be that surprising to see them pursuing players who could significantly improve their roster. Especially with their new stadium opening up next spring, the Braves don’t want to put a bad product on the field, potentially wasting the revenue boost that comes from opening a new ballpark. But on the other hand, before the team aggressively turns future assets into present value, the Braves should make sure they’re not following in the footsteps of the Arizona Diamondbacks, whose desire to push their window to win forward by a year or two ended up doing a tremendous amount of destruction to the organization. Of course, the Braves are intimately familiar with that destruction, since they caused most of it when they agreed to the Shelby Miller trade, robbing the Diamondbacks of Ender Inciarte, Dansby Swanson, and Aaron Blair. The former pair are primary reasons why the Braves look at their 2017 roster and see a team that could be okay next year. The Braves landed their franchise shortstop and starting center fielder by exploiting Arizona’s mistaken belief that they were ready to take a big step forward, despite a roster that lacked depth and projected around .500 at best. But now the Braves seem to be in a similar position, wanting to win sooner than later, but without enough talent to make that something they should plan for in 2017. For instance, here’s a graph of rough projected win totals heading into the winter, from Jeff Sullivan’s post two weeks ago. Three teams, at that point, projected for fewer than 70 wins; the Brewers, Padres, and the Atlanta Braves. Yes, this was before they signed Colon and Dickey, so now they project closer to 72 or 73 wins, but that’s still a very long way away from legitimate contender status. And even if we gave them Chris Sale, without subtracting any significant major league players from their roster, they’d realistically be looking at a 76 or 77 win projection heading into 2017. So even if they managed to land Sale without giving up anything off their big league roster — good luck with that, by the way — they’d still be something like 10 wins shy of Wild Card status. And while no projection system is perfect, it’s just not realistic to argue that Steamer is misevaluating the Braves current talent level by 10 wins. Looking at their current depth chart, there’s a decent argument that Steamer is a little too low on a few of their players. Ender Inciarte is projected for +2 WAR in 600 PAs, when he’s averaged +3.6 WAR per 600 PAs in the first three years of his career. Steamer’s being pretty cautious with its projection of Inciarte’s defensive value, but I’d take the over on him putting up a +5 UZR next year, and think he’s probably more of a +3 WAR player than a +2 WAR guy. So that’s one win. Steamer’s also projection Julio Teheran to take a big step backwards, but he’s averaged about an extra win every 200 innings above and beyond what his fielding independent numbers suggest, so this forecast is probably low for him too. Let’s be generous and give them a full extra win for Teheran, even though that’s probably overly optimistic. So we’re up to two extra wins. After that, it gets sketchier. The Braves believe Nick Markakis and Matt Kemp are better than we think, so you can maybe give them another win if you think those guys are underrated by our metrics for whatever reason. Like I said, we’re being generous. So if you think two below average outfielders, one 33 and the other 32, are going to defy aging, then hey, we’re up to three extra wins. But we’re also just running out of places to find extra wins. Dansby Swanson is already projected as a league average regular, and while the Braves have plenty of reasons to believe in his long-term potential, expecting more than that in 2017 is probably not wise. Adonis Garcia? Jace Peterson? Whoever they get to replace Tyler Flowers as their catcher? Again, maybe you’re looking at a win here or there, maybe. Unfortunately, the Braves could trade for Sale and Chris Archer and still not project as contenders in 2017. It would be a good rotation, but the Braves position players would still project to be among the worst in baseball, and this big bet on starting pitching carrying not-good-enough hitters was the same failed gamble Arizona made last winter. And, of course, it’s not like Sale and Archer are going to come cheaply, so more realistically, the Braves would have to give up something off their big league roster to acquire either one, reducing the marginal improvement that came from adding either pitcher. And yes, the Braves can argue that acquiring Sale or Archer or whoever isn’t just about 2017; they’d have those guys in 2018 and beyond, so it wouldn’t be only a win-now gamble. But Dave Stewart made these exact same claims last year when they punted their future to land Shelby Miller, talking about a three-year window that opened up with the acquisitions of Miller and Zack Greinke. And it’s just as faulty a plan now as it was then. Because to buy Sale or Archer’s value in 2018 and beyond, you have to also pay the 2017 wins that the White Sox or Rays are selling, and those wins are extremely valuable to teams that are ready to win this year. In order to be the high bidder, the Braves will have to pay a high price, and unfortunately, they’re not in a position to take advantage of Sale’s value in at least one of the three remaining years he has left on his deal. And if the young players don’t take the step forward that the team is counting on, they might not be in a position to take advantage of his value in 2018 either, and then they’ll have paid a massive price to land a short-term upgrade to help a non-contender finish in the middle of the pack. The bidding for Sale is going to be absurd, especially with a limited supply of alternatives for teams to go after. The Braves are probably not in a position to capitalize on his 2017 value, so paying a premium to land a guy whose going to churn through a good chunk of his value in the short-term is a great way to reduce the organization’s chances of winning in 2018 and beyond, and the uptick in their chances in 2017 just aren’t worth it. That isn’t to say the Braves shouldn’t try to improve. They need a catcher, a second baseman, a third baseman, and an outfielder to eventually replace Markakis and/or Kemp, when those guys stop hitting enough to justify their line-up spots. There are plenty of places where the team can make improvements to improve the quality of their 2017 product, and they can do so by getting guys who aren’t just stopgaps, but who could help the team in 2018 and beyond as well. It won’t be as sexy as landing an ace like Sale, but it also won’t risk wasting a good chunk of the future value the team has been accumulating. I know it’s tempting to want to win in 2017, and I know the 37-35 record in the second half makes it feel like winning isn’t that far away. But the guys who helped make the Braves one of the worst teams in baseball in the first half of the season? They’re still around, and in many cases, still being counted on as primary contributors. And there just isn’t enough depth behind the team’s few good players to feel safe about the team’s chances to keep winning if any of their best guys get hurt. Taking a best-case-scenario approach to deciding when to push all-in is exactly what got Arizona in trouble last year. And for the Braves to justify paying the price for Chris Sale, they’d have to overestimate their chances of winning in 2017 and overestimate the impact of adding a frontline starter. The Braves aren’t at the point where they should make that kind of gamble yet. Let the teams that have a better shot at winning outbid each other for the few good pitchers available in this market. Get better position players, continue building for 2018, and make your big move next winter if the team shows they’re ready to win. Moving up the timeline is tempting, especially with the new park opening. But it’s probably a trap, and one the Braves would do well to avoid.
I agree with that article. I hope they don't go into this season planning to get out of the lineup what we did the last two months of the season and expect that as a baseline. We will fall flat on our faces.
Atlanta Braves (38): Added LHP Max Fried, RHP Lucas Sims and SS Johan Camargo. Fried bounced back nicely in 2016 from Tommy John surgery that wiped out the majority of two pro seasons. Even though he’s yet to pitch above Class A, his combination of plus stuff and pedigree would have made him a top Rule 5 target. Sims is still too wild to be relied on at the major league level, but he missed enough bats that the Braves didn’t want to take a risk on a team stashing him in their bullpen. Camargo was Rule 5 eligible last year and went unpicked, but now that he has a solid season at Double-A under his belt, the Braves didn’t want to risk losing the utility infielder who projects as potentially Dansby Swanson and Ozzie Albies low-cost backup in years to come.
It sounds like we will have to give up more than Sale is worth to get him in the sense that I don't think he alone is going to be enough to make this team competitive immediately. I don't want him anymore. And for fucks sake can we not try to hard to force a successful season out of franchise that was almost the worst in Baseball the previous year just bc they are moving to Cobb County. I'm team let them grow at this point. No point in unloading what we've built.
John Hart just said on @MLBNetwork that #Braves “not close” on any big SP, added team is mindful of not accelerating rebuild too quickly.
SECOND BASE: TRAVIS DEMERITTE – ATLANTA BRAVES 6-0, 180 (R/R) It seems everything Demeritte hit in the AFL was loud. He has a knack for putting the barrel of the bat on the ball and using the entire field. He makes good contact and drives the ball. He doesn’t get cheated at the plate, hitting the ball to the gaps and running well. Fine on defense as well. I saw him make several leaping catches to rob the hitter of a base hit.
Welp, there's this: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...adres-bethancourt-pitcher-20161001-story.html Padres could make Bethancourt pitcher/catcher/outfielder Spoiler Christian Bethancourt’s first professional pitching appearance was only that in the loosest sense of the term, and yet fans, peers and coaches came away intrigued by the possibilities. In a blowout loss at Safeco Field on May 31, the Padres catcher took the mound, recorded two outs and, with little in the way of effort or mechanics, touched 96 mph. (He also fired a 54 mph eephus for a called strike.) Four months later, the organization is moseying into uncharted territory. Bethancourt, who is returning from an intercostal strain in Peoria, Ariz., threw his second bullpen session Saturday. Each pitch was watched by Padres manager Andy Green, pitching coach Darren Balsley, bullpen coach Doug Bochtler, minor league pitching coordinator Mark Prior and player development coordinator Shaun Cole. “We’re flirting with the idea of this guy being a very intriguing ‘25th man’ who can catch, can play the outfield and can pitch,” Green said. “I know no team has actually really tried to deploy a guy in that capacity — probably ever when you consider those three dynamics. “We’ll run as far down that road as his arm allows us to. I don’t know that we’re firmly committed to that or married to that, but it’s worth exploring.” Atlanta Braves signed him out of Panama in 2008, Bethancourt, 25, has routinely made the strongest throws by a catcher in professional baseball. On the 20-to-80 scouting scale, most talent evaluators rate his arm an 80. The Braves, who traded the former top prospect to the Padres in December, kicked around the idea of putting him on the mound, though, until now, the idea hadn’t gained serious consideration. Micah Owings and Brooks Kieschnick are two recent examples of position players who also served as relievers, but neither attempted the pitcher-catcher-outfielder trifecta. As a backup catcher on a team that’s carried three backstops for much of 2016, the athletically gifted Bethancourt made 12 corner-outfield appearances. In May, he began occasionally taking ground balls at third base during batting practice. He checked off his second pitching cameo with a scoreless inning on June 13. Adding legitimate skills in the field and on the mound would give the Padres creative options for utilizing Bethancourt in 2017. Austin Hedges is expected to be the team’s primary catcher, and, for now, fellow catchers Derek Norris and Hector Sanchez remain on the roster. Bethancourt hit just .228 with six home runs before his oblique injury ended his season at the end of August. Green said Bethancourt “embraced” the organization’s idea when it was presented to him. “The intrigue of doing something nobody else in the game does — I think that's fascinating to a guy,” Green said. “And he does have the skillset to do it. It's an arm with zero mechanics hitting 96 on the gun in a game in the major leagues. No real clue how to pitch. He was considerably better today than he was then. He's got a lot more progress to make before he's going to be deployed in a game.” Because of the nature of an intercostal strain, throwing has been easier for Bethancourt than swinging. The current focus is on honing his mechanics so as to avoid further injury. Health permitting, Bethancourt could eventually apply his pitching lessons in winter ball in Panama. “We need to make sure he’s in the right position before we do that,” Green said. “That’ll just depend on how quickly he progresses.” While this experiment unfolds, the Padres already have completed a full conversion this year. Former catching prospect Jose Ruiz, whose arm strength might rival Bethancourt’s, became a reliever during the summer. Over 12 1/3 innings, mostly with short-season Tri-City, Ruiz didn’t allow a run and struck out 14 batters. The 21-year-old was regularly clocked in the 94-98 mph range.
I think we're now at the point where most of us agree that if we pay what we're hearing the price is for Sale, we're making a mistake.
Seems like the articles popping up about the Braves being cautious making a move mean that the FO is having the same reservations
I mean, this FO have been trade wizards. I just don't see us making a foolish move unless the higher-ups are putting the screws to Coppy saying we need to compete next year. We need to all hope this isn't the case but... Liberty Media.
How many professional organizations are majority owned by corporations rather than individuals? Seems like we're one of the few in that regard.
Veteran catcher Jason Castro reached an agreement Tuesday with the Minnesota Twins on a new contract. Ken Rosenthal of FoxSports.com cited a source and reported the news. Jeff Passan of Yahoo Sports reported that it was a three-year, $24.5 million deal.