So we traded an every day player who seems like one of the nicest people in the sport for nothing, and picked up the option on a piece of shit, wife beating closer. I get that we're cutting payroll and stuff like this is going to happen, but today kind of sucks. I hope they dump KRod on someone later in the winter after Jansen and Chapman get paid.
They had to pick up the KRod option. I just hate the guy and want that trade to happen now. Especially if we're dumping Maybin, who I've always really liked.
Right now, the combo of Tyler Collins and JaCoby Jones is the default most likely. Assuming they might trade for a young one in the right salary dump, and/or sign a vet like Austin Jackson later in the offseason to compete, as well.
im fine with the Maybin move. his talent may be worth $9 mil but with his injuries id understand the Tigers not wanting to pay that number for 90 games next season ...
Kind of curious if this means "it's going to take 3 years to rebuild so we can be good again" or "it's going to take 3 years to get the payroll down".
I'm well known for my lack of emotion, and I get that dealing Cabrera, especially, would probably be best for the franchise over the long term. It's going to get dusty over here if we move either Cabrera or Verlander, though. Straight salary dumping Verlander would really piss me off. Cabrera I could at least understand because that contract is insane. Verlander's getting paid 3 more seasons, and only reason to dump him for little/nothing would be because Ilitch pushed to sign so many other huge contracts to worse players (VMart, Upton, Zimmermann, etc.).
And, just so people are realistic about this: We're not getting a huge haul for Cabrera. I'm not sure we could get any "haul" for him. If we moved him, it would be to dump his salary, and I'm not entirely sure we could move him for nothing without paying at least some of his salary. He's guaranteed about $205M over the next 7 years. As much as it sucks, if someone offered to take his entire contract, it would probably be the smartest move to make that deal.
You're probably right. Unless we somehow traded him at the deadline during the season. Teams tend to give up a lot more then.
I don't think they would get more during the season. Teams are sometimes more willing to move prospects, but it's harder to take on money during the season, too. Moving him now would give us the best opportunity of dumping as much of that contract as possible.
I mean if we move Miggy now, I imagine JV goes to. Not sure you want to keep JV on the payroll when you are definitely not making a run at a title. Rip the bandaid off.
And, ultimately, that's that question about this whole deal. Does ownership have the stomach to completely rebuild and deal with the empty seats in the next few seasons? You can't just trade Kinsler/Martinez and then call it good. If you're moving a couple, you basically have to move them all. It hurts, but you have to do it if the right deal is out there. I don't think you can just deal Verlander for salary relief, though. That does nothing for the organization moving forward. You have to be getting at least one legit (top 50ish) piece. Dumping Cabrera is different because of the 7-9 years left on that deal.
And you shouldn't have to salary-dump JV. His deal is palatable now given the way he pitched, and he should bring a solid return. I agree that Miggy is not bringing much if anything. I'd love to see him go someplace like Houston where he can be the clubhouse anchor for a team that has a chance.
I'd trade CAbrera in a heartbeat, even if we are just dumping his contract. JV only has 3 seasons left at $28MM per season. He'd get over $100MM on a 3 year contract if he were FA. He'd definitely bring back a ton.
I'm not mentally prepared to live in a world where we dump Miggy and JV...I mean, I get why...just not ready
From what I believe is Heyman's site. Thought a couple lines here were interesting: SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. — The Detroit Tigers are open for business this offseason. They have let it be known to other teams that they are willing to trade nearly any veteran player on the roster, even superstars such as right-hander Justin Verlander and first baseman Miguel Cabrera, as well as stalwarts like right-hander Jordan Zimmermann, closer Francisco Rodriguez, designated hitter Victor Martinez, second baseman Ian Kinsler and outfielders J.D. Martinez and Justin Upton. Center fielder Cameron Maybin was dealt to the Los Angeles Angels last week. While general manager Al Avila cautions that the Tigers are not tearing their team apart, he is willing to make changes. After all, the franchise has not won a World Series since 1984 despite 87-year-old owner Mike Ilitch funding one of the highest payrolls in the game for many years. “We have an open mind to listen on any player on our roster,” Avila said this week during the general managers’ meetings. “We’re going to try to make this organization good for the long run, not the short run. We’re looking at it as all-in for the long haul. And so the transition, that first step, might be a little bit tough here.” The NHL’s Detroit Red Wings have been highly successful under Ilitch’s ownership, winning four Stanley Cup titles, which led to his induction into the Hockey Hall of Fame. However, his first love is admittedly baseball, and winning a World Series has been his Ilitch’s holy grail since buying the team in 1992. Ilitch fired president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski in early August, 2015, incensed about the trades of left-hander David Price, outfielder Yoenis Cespedes and right-handed reliever Joakim Soria for prospects while the Tigers were 3.5 games out of the second American League wild card. The Tigers went on finish last in the AL Central with a 74-87 record in 2015, then missed the postseason for the second straight season this year, going 86-75 after winning four consecutive division titles from 2011-14. They sat home in October despite having a $199 million payroll that ranked fourth in the major leagues behind the Los Angeles Dodgers, New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox. According to a Tigers’ source, Ilitch’s seven children would prefer to keep the Red Wings and sell the Tigers in the long term. They feel selling the team would become easier if the franchise offloaded the contracts of Verlander, who is guaranteed $84 million over the next three years, and Cabrera, who is owed $212 million over the next six years. Both are 33 years old. “If anybody thinks that you just can continue to add and add, where does the payroll get to?” Avila said. Avila said the reshaping of the major league roster could be a long process, perhaps taking as many as three offseasons before reaching completion. “Quite frankly, like I told ownership, it may not get done this winter,” Avila said. “As a matter of fact, it probably won’t get done this winter.” Avila was quick to add “this isn’t a full-blown selloff by any means, but we need to be open-minded in listening to what clubs may be interested in from us and what we can do with it.” In 1997, Avila was the Marlins’ director of Latin American operations and Dombrowski was GM when Florida won the World Series. Just days after beating the Indians in seven games, owner H. Wayne Huizenga, in the process of selling the team to John Henry, ordered such high-priced stars as Kevin Brown, Al Leiter and Moises Alou to be traded. However, Avila said there is no comparison of the Tigers now to the Marlins then. “That was a fire sale,” Avila said. “This is not a fire sale. This is a change of philosophy.”
I still don't get what Avila's quotes mean about listening but not being a fire sale and whatnot, but I guess we'll find out. The Ilitch stuff has always been rumored, but no one really seems like they want to talk about it.
Crains Detroit writer Fwiw Tony Paul says the Dodgers sources he has aren't responding to him about the rumors
Was a rumor I saw earlier that LA supposedly has interest in Kinsler, too. Both would make sense. If we're dealing Verlander, I would much prefer the Dodgers to an AL big market team. I might legit cry if he's pitching for the Yankees or Red Sox at any point.
From Foster One of my people said the Tigers should be getting a call from the Chicago Cubs about Miggy
After seeing how close we were to making the playoffs this year i would rather try to compete again. If we are going to trade Miggy or Verlander though I am on board with a complete sell off.
Not really. They've been similar to us for a while with dealing prospects and signing FAs, and they traded a lot to get Matt Moore last season.
The problem is, if the payroll is way too high for the org to deal with, anyone they trade essentially forces a sell off. If we were somehow able to dump the contracts of Anibal and VMart, I think that would relieve a lot of the stress, but we're still not a great bet for the playoffs even at that point, and we're hurting our potential in the future by not trading Kinsler and JD when their value is likely at its highest. It's a tough spot, and it's hard to know what we need to do without knowing exactly what the deal is in terms of the payroll and how much we have to cut.
Buster Olney had this on his blog this morning regarding Verlander and Cabrera: Justin Verlander would join elite company if he wins his second Cy Young Award today, and he's not far off from clinching eventual Hall of Fame election, given his level of dominance. Sometime in the next two seasons, Verlander likely will pick up his 200th career win and 2,500th strikeout, and he is quickly closing in on 3,000 innings. His Adjusted ERA+ is higher than that of Bob Feller, Eddie Plank and Don Drysdale, and since the start of the 2006 season, the only pitcher with a higher WAR (FanGraphs version) is Clayton Kershaw. This history and legacy contributes to the high industry skepticism that the Tigers will actually be willing to say yes to a trade of Verlander or future Hall of Famer Miguel Cabrera. Rival evaluators say the Tigers seem most active in discussions about outfielder J.D. Martinez, because Martinez is a free agent after next season and because the Tigers -- faced with significant luxury-tax concerns -- probably won't be willing to pay what it'll take to retain the outfielder. The Tigers are said to be very open to moving Justin Upton, Anibal Sanchez and other expensive players. But swapping offers for Verlander and Cabrera and actually saying yes to trades could be very complicated and difficult for Detroit, because they're the faces of the franchise now and even in the decades after they retire. "I'd be shocked if those guys are anywhere else next spring," said one longtime official.
I think he's usually decent with news, although I trusted it more when he and Rosenthal would report stuff together. Now he's at mlb.com, so who knows. His history is with the Tigers, so I tend to take his Detroit stuff somewhat serious. His non-news stuff is awful, though. Might be the dumbest person about actual baseball who writes about it in the national media, which is a really big statement.
I don't think they could get Bellinger for Kinsler. He's probably their top prospect, and as good as Kinsler is, he's old and not the kind of guy that LAD tends to trade for with the new regime. Guys like Verdugo, Buehler or maybe De Leon would probably be the players more likely. I'm not sure we could get Bellinger for Verlander, given how I'm assuming they value him.
By Ken Rosenthal If the Tigers want to trade second baseman Ian Kinsler to a team on his limited no-trade list, he only will approve the deal if granted a contract extension, according to his agent, Jay Franklin. The Dodgers, a team in need of a second baseman, are one of 10 clubs that would require Kinsler’s permission for a trade, Franklin said Wednesday. Kinsler, 34, is coming off his best offensive season since 2011, but his desire for an extension likely would complicate talks with the Dodgers and any other team on his no-trade list, perhaps forcing the Tigers to deal with one of the 19 clubs that could acquire him without restriction. Major-league sources confirmed that the Tigers and Dodgers have discussed Kinsler, as first reported by MLB Network’s Jon Paul Morosi. The Dodgers also have inquired on other available second basemen, including the Twins’ Brian Dozier, sources said. “If one of the 10 teams happens to call and wants to talk about it, we’re open to talking about it,” Franklin said. “(But) they’re going to have to extend him for us to waive the no-trade. “His ultimate goal is no different than when he went from the Rangers to the Tigers. He wants to win. If anyone knows Ian Kinsler, he has always been that type of guy. “He would like the opportunity to stay at his position and hopefully get to the Hall of Fame. He works his tail off to keep himself in shape, trying to get to the point where the writers will one day say he was one of the best ever to play his position.” Kinsler is under contract for $11 million in 2017, and his deal also includes a $10 million option for ’18. Any extension would begin when he was 36, an age at which clubs normally balk at signing players long-term. The Tigers are considering a variety of options to lower their payroll and inject younger talent. Kinsler and outfielder J.D. Martinez are viewed as their most likely trade candidates because they are high-level performers nearing the ends of their respective contracts; Martinez will earn $11.75 million in 2017, his free-agent year. Kinsler, whom the Tigers acquired from the Rangers for first baseman Prince Fielder on Nov. 20, 2013, batted .288 with 28 homers and an .831 OPS last season. He also tied the Red Sox’s Dustin Pedroia for the major-league lead in defensive runs saved at second base — the third consecutive year he has topped the rankings.
No, this isn't a bump because we made a trade. Sorry. This is from Buster Olney yesterday. Not sure this means much, other than the fact we're not straight salary dumping Verlander or Cabrera. Would still love to see us somehow find a taker for at least half of VMart's contract.
I think JD ends up in San Fran. I'm probably not going to like that return, either. I'm reading several things suggesting we might be able to move VMart, although he has a full no trade. I'm trying not to get my hopes up, but that would be huge for us if it happened and we didn't have to pick up more than half that money.