We were there 20 years and whatever it is we built lasted only weeks before the Taliban took back control with little resistance.
If you stayed another 40-50 years we probably get a stable democracy in the region. Hindsight being 20/20 it was going to be a multigenerational commitment. If we didn’t want to do that we shouldn’t have gone there in the first place.
20 years was enough for 20 days but 70 years would have down the trick. Keep telling yourself that. The truth is they didn't want what we were selling. That's hard for some to accept but it's the truth. They don't want our democracy.
there wasn’t an insurgency in south korea so the proletarianizing forces that they saw wouldn’t happen unless the US spent 10x the money in urban afghanistan
We can’t even keep one at home. But sure, a couple more decades and our exceptionalism will just make it happen in a country that’s never been, and likely never will be, a functioning country.
There was a hostile country across the border that was held back by the direct support of us the military and the geopolitical implications of attacking a US ally. The point wasn’t that it was direct comparison of the situation. The point is that you are going to attempt any type of nation building you need to be in for the long haul. To make that commitment you don’t need to the support of just the military you need the American people commited
Thats a lot harder to sell to the population to keep them on board. In all honesty there is no true nation building. There are always ulterior motives. The most you can hope for is that both sides benefit from the relationship.
Haha, networks out here just broadcasting classified aircraft. This is that "stealth" helicopter that they flew (and crashed) to go kill bin Laden.
thats the point, the ussr and usa were able to strong-arm drag NK and SK out of a primarily peasant society because the superpowers involved abided by typical cold war rules of nation building, split up an ethnically and culturally homogeneous society, and only needed to worry about 160 miles of border afghanistan is a landlocked primarily peasant country dominated by drug-money-rich warlords of various ethnic groups outside of the cities, famously unconquerable for hundreds of years. nobody has reason to fight and die for the installed government when they could defect and actually get paid by the bandit factions. the usa and ussr’s only option in afghanistan was to invest an impossible amount to industrialize the country and proletarianize the rural peasantry “staying in for the long haul” would mean investing an incomprehensible amount of money and not just giving all of it to defense contractors and politicians like we did for the last 15 years. it’s not possible to out-willpower a large insurrection in central asia
I think one thing that is not talked about when we are in these “long haul” nation building discussions regarding Afghanistan is the role that Pakistan plays here. When the taliban “fell” and was effectively run out of the country they found safe harbor in the mountain tribal regions on that border and the Pakistani government never made an effort to go in there and continue to flush out the taliban and affiliated groups. They have been allowed to essentially run around up there free of any threat and have done so for nearly 20 years now. You literally cannot fix Afghanistan and the threat the Taliban poses to it until Pakistan is on board. The radical elements within the ISI are a huge problem for us in the region and most importantly a major road block in the fight against the Taliban.
I guess the cernovichsphere is talking as if the individuals in "doha station" are outed by this. Whether it's true or not, I have no idea.
So the solution is there is no solution? My whole point was you had to make those major investments to get long term change. If the American people had the appetite to be there we would still be there. We shouldn’t be surprised that after 20 years it failed and failed quickly. It is hard for a rural peasant to be given anything by an occupying force other than to be left alone. Long term investment may not have had an effect on the current generation but we may have had a chance with the next generation.
So the population shouldn't and/or won't be on board with the true motives? So where's the justification?
I was agreeing with you. Read the second line. It is all some form of colonialism. Nations don’t act altruistically towards one another. The only thing we can hope for is that it is mutually beneficial for both sides.
There is no long term investment to be made by the United States of America in Afghanistan or the Middle East in general. This type of thinking is what has made a volatile place spin completely out of control. Every actor in the region looks at what we do there policy wise with a bias towards Saudi interests and containment of Iran. That creates problems we can’t grasp. There is no place for us in the Middle East just as a general principle but especially no place for us when our policy makers have failed to get their arms around the complexities and nuance of the region.
The AVgeeks are just taking note of the (all too certain) last dregs of commercial air traffic in and out of KBL. Earlier they were following an Emirates flight that appeared to be in a holding pattern before ultimately failing to make a final approach, and heading back to Dubai. (Whether there was another update on that or not I'm not sure) Not sure of the veracity of anything in the replies but there are folks suggesting that that Turkish flight was actually covered/escorted and that our guys have momentarily secured the airport to allow for additional evacs...
not sure but dbl may be right . Supposedly no commercial flights yet that one just landed so it may have been escorted . Maybe back channel talks w Turkey?
Coincidentally I was just reading this gem on his timeline: Gee, it’s too bad someone high up at a news org, like, say, the chief NBC foreign correspondent, couldn’t have gotten word out.
The US hasn't been a democracy for seventy years and we're talking about spending 70 years in Afghanistan. Crazy.
Someone should have told these people the good news that their country is going to be great now that the Americans have left.
If they’re that desperate then why not fight? Was there any real opposition to the Taliban? Apologies if this has been asked and/or addressed before.