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Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by Illinihockey, Apr 12, 2015.
Give them food and money to get by?
Yea, not to be chippy with people just now tuning in, but Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq - they are all just 500 of the poppy field conundrums strung together with 6-8 people holding some of the strings all pulling in different directions. There are no good answers to any questions. This has been established in American FP since about 2005.
ETA: Part of why we fucked up so badly is we believe we, in fact, do have all the answers.
From a short term perspective, that works, but for how long? Forever is obviously an option, but the second that money stops, those guys will go right back to growing opium again.
Blowing up the fields just means those farmers will pick up a rifle and go to work with the taliban. Its really a lose lose situation for any outsider.
My question now is going to be how long the US forces can hold the airport and at the same time, how long will the Taliban allow us to evacuate individuals they want to kill. Once we make the decision of how many people we are going to evac, how do we manage security of the US troop departures? Its obvious those Apaches they have flying to provide air support, will not be able to be flown out of the country and we don't want to let Pakistan or the Taliban to hand over operational Apaches to the Chinese or Russians to reverse engineer. So those will probably get blown up to the point of destroying anything of any value to anyone.
We are doing as good of a job in securing the airport as it is now, with those troops on the ground, but what is the plan for the next stage in this mission?
I feel like the Taliban are basically "wolverines!!" Except they are all about following the edicts of their shitty imaginary friend.
Aerial refueling silly goose, we’ll get those birds outta there.
If the Wolverines were funded and provided training and material support by Canada.
The only tenable solution with regards to poppy fields would be to purchase it ourselves from the farmers for morphine production. Not sure that's really practical and the Taliban still probably comes for cash made by the farmers but it seems better than any of the options utilized. Either way as many have said it was a multi-generational occupation or nothing.
Apaches I don't believe are equipped for Airborne refueling. The pave hawks (blackhawks) do have AAR capability I believe. Those are used by the State Department uses I believe. But their Chinooks are not I don't believe. There is a possibility to flying to Pakistan, but even that is risky at the moment.
If we bring in 6000 soldiers, how do we get those servicemen out while making sure those planes don't deal with similar challenges of people rushing to get on as they head for the runway? I somewhat think it might make sense to have a number of soldiers para jump in and possibly retake Bagram airfield but I have no idea what challenges that would bring and if it is even feasible.
The taliban itself has no interest in preventing evacuating.
The issues are just the volume of people wanting out.
I was thinking the same thing. Why would they want to shoot down an American aircraft and provoke the US to stay or come back? Seems counter productive to what they want to do. I'm surprised they actually haven't put out a statement or something saying we'll stand down for 48 hours or something like that.
Taliban's gotta present a pretty grave threat before I'd try to hang on to a landing gear
Seems like they're a lot more adept at pr this time around, speaks to how they did a better job with covid than the (former) Afghan government.
iirc they have announced they won't touch the embassies or the airport
fwiw when people ask for cites the tweets are deleted
They said plenty of things, there’s a difference between the ones on the ground and the leadership in Doha. The Trump admin are being rightly hammered to emboldening the leadership who got more fighters free, fighters who weren’t prepared to halt at the entrance to Kabul as instructed.
“BBC's World Affairs Editor John Simpson told RTÉ Drivetime that the Taliban force is not really a coherent one at all.
"One of the huge failures of the Trump administration, followed by the Biden administration, was to think that if they do a deal with the fairly fundamentalist scholars and so forth, that represent the political leadership of the Taliban in Doha, that will affect the guys on the ground.
Not in the slightest. I mean each group is loyal to its own leader … essentially, it's every group for himself."
He added: "Every group congregated on the road to Kabul and everything collapsed in front of them because the soldiers, the well-trained, well-equipped soldiers of the Afghan army were just terrified of these crazy guys who were reported to have executed their prisoners and they didn't want to resist.
"You can't ignore the fact that the Taliban are probably, certainly, one of the most rebarbative and primitive political groupings in the world."
He said the Taliban is so extreme, it was difficult to find a parallel in the rest of the world.”
I don't think it would be the official position of the Taliban to provoke America, but at this point what do they have to lose? Does anyone think if they were to attack, we would decide to invade again?
However there are reports of sporatic shooting at aircraft that are leaving the airfield by Taliban soldiers. Obviously the odds of them hitting an aircraft and doing significant damage is low, but it doesn't appear to be zero.
I am not sure I would trust much of what the Taliban has "promised".
i appreciate the sorta cite but richard engel is maybe the most deranged neocon in media so will wait for more credible reporting that they're interrupting evacuations
Don’t know if this guy is any more credible buuuut
This article points to the idea that the Taliban does have an interest in preventing evacuations. Unless you were speaking only of non-Afghani nationals.
This is to me, the hands down most confusing decision military leaders have made, maybe in my lifetime.
Their pr person is doin work
So you're saying I shouldn't trust all the real estate agents and Scentsy consultants on my Facebook saying this is entirely Biden's fault?
At least remain skeptical of their Afghani bonafides.
Slowest bumper cars ever?
Having spent a bit of time there, inherent to the Afghan military is the sense, and it is real of corruption. So to counter this, you will never find military from local areas especially the officers, serving locally. Too ripe for the local connections and getting bitched into trading intel or people in the inside. The counter is to send all the military folks off to the farthest reaches of the country. Makes perfect sense to limit the pull of local warlords who more than likely know who your family is. The Achilles heel to this is when the Taliban started to mobilize, and look how they did this, very strategic, the military, including the top generals freaked the fuck out and abandoned post and got back to their families. Error in strategy that led to the folding of the tent that was formally known as the Afghan army.
Surely they can’t operate them. Aren’t they mostly piloted from here?
I'd guess the concern is the drones and other technology finding their way to China and Russia who, if we're being honest, probably hacked the manufacturers years ago and already have the specs
Could be wrong but would think Russia and especially China already have engineering ability to make similar drones without needing ours.
That’s either a drone that is authorized to be sold by Boeing worldwide without an export license or a modestly upgraded version of one.
Seen on Facebook. Kinda cringey chain mail post, but kinda good
The first time I saw you was in the Khyber pass. You came with your technology, elite fighters fueled by revenge, and the hubris to believe you could disprove history.
This was a war that you didn’t have the stomach to fight. But I’m glad you tried.
We bled you the same way we bled the Soviets in our Holy Land. We bled you the same way the Vietnamese bled you in their home land. We did it patiently and deliberately.
Patience. Something Westerners never learn.
Our history is millennial. We don’t yearn for an early victory when the Infidel ravages our Holy Land. Our victory is celebrated decades from now. We’ve endured, then ravaged every standing military that crossed our borders. Why? How? We’re patient.
In 30 days, we’ll be stronger, richer, and have control over precious natural resources that you need for your pathetic life that’s dictated by comfort. We will have women, riches, land, guns, and ownership of one of the greatest chapters in military history.
If you want to try again, we welcome the challenge. You will fail regardless of how much money you burn in our deserts. For pity, here is free advice that may contribute to your future success; should you ever decide to invade again.
You recruit your warriors and supporters from a drug addicted, distracted, disillusioned population that’s obsessed with comfort and entertainment. A population obsessed with altering their mundane reality. Alcohol, marijuana, pills, and our new favorite -- Tide Pods. Every time your doctors prescribe opiate painkillers, you line our coffers with gold. Your population’s thirst for our pristine heroin has never been more lucrative for our warrior tribes. We will keep feeding you poison for as long as you keep your hands out.
If your population wasn’t so spineless, undisciplined, and self loathing, then you might be able to compile a raiding party with enough tenacity to outthink ours.
Our fighters are born into war. Raised in it. It’s a way of life that evades your “first world” nations. They live a life of such immense misery and pain that they’re willing to fight barefoot in the snow for the opportunity to martyr themselves. They yearn for the opportunity to die. When they do have the blessed opportunity to sacrifice themselves, they sit above Mohammed at the right hand of God. Blessed in Allah for eternity.
What honors do your fighters receive? Their empty sacrifice is remembered in the form of a “three day weekend.” The majority of your population uses this sacred time to get drunk and grow more fat as a way to celebrate their fallen warriors. Sadly, we pay tribute to their death more honorably.
The colored pieces of cloth you pin on their chests are similar to the jewelry worn by our women. What good are accolades and vanity if you don’t have the stomach to endure a fight? We don’t offer the burden of healthcare to our fighters as they often want to die for Allah. Your fighters fight to live. Their inability to reconcile the inevitable outcome of our patience leads them to kill themselves. Your medications, counselors and non-profits will never undo the pain and suffering you’ve forced them to endure. It will never remove the pain we’ve caused your broken nation. You are your own worst enemy.
We will give your fighters credit. Some are creative, tenacious, and fierce. They outgun us in every way possible. But again, we simply wait them out. Allah is patient. You cycle them through our Holy Lands every 3 to 12 months for their combat rotations. After their tour is complete, they return to the comfort of their warm beds and endless entertainment. If you left them here, in our Holy Land, with no way out but to win, then you might of have had a chance of success. The longer you poisoned our Holy Land with your presence, your “rules of engagement” only strengthened our position. There is only one rule in war - that is to win.
Your commanders made you fight with your hands tied behind your back. Your rules also confused our fighters too. “We’re clearly the enemy, why are they letting us go?” Thank you for your compassion as it allowed our fighters to kill more Infidels. We began to feel as if your commanders were on our side. We’re thankful your most vicious dogs were never allowed off their leash.
Your showcase Generals make us laugh. You spend millions of dollars flying them around our country inventing new ways to win, while ignoring the guidance of our most capable foes. Your Generals make decisions to minimize risk to their fragile reputation with the ultimate goal of securing a lucrative retirement--jobs with suppliers that fuel your losing force. A self-serving circle that’s built on the backs of your youngest and most naive fighters.
Your retired Generals “earn” tens of thousands of dollars talking to your political, industrial, and financial leaders about “teams, winning, and discipline.” It’s a mockery of the war they refused to fight. It’s a mockery of the Infidel warriors who died in our lands. We urge you to continue following their vacuumous personalities so we can further watch your once great nation collapse.
Your statesman and elected officials are spineless, narcissistic, and more cowardly than your Generals. They crave power over you above all else. They come to our country, hide behind blast walls, and only heed the word of the indigenous leader they put in power. I believe your soldiers call this a “self licking ice cream cone.”
They’ve burned billions of dollars in a wasted effort to bring clean water, electricity, business, education, agriculture, and exports to a region that didn’t ask for it. You should have saved yourself the effort and simply given the money directly to us. Don’t worry, your diplomatic friends gave us plenty of your American tax dollars. If you want to give it another shot with your “soft power,” send those with real experience, not fancy degrees and silver tongues.
Over the next few months, we will make the world understand that you failed worse than any fighting force that’s ever invaded our lands. Today we celebrate victory.
As you evacuate your embassy, our fighters will be standing in the shade. We thank you for the parting gifts. You’ll find surface-to-air missiles staged in the back of Toyota pickup trucks that you purchased for us. Our marksmen will be patient.
We saw what Extortion 17 did to your nation and the morale of your fighting force. Do your citizens even remember that victory? We’ll be repeating and improving upon our victory while your citizens and sympathizers evacuate in disgrace.
Every one of your foes around the world will know exactly how to break you.
You are welcome to fly your empty drones, target our cell phones, and send your spies. But they, too, will ultimately fail. We’ll use their failures to show the world that you’re not all-powerful. You’re a false front. An empty shell. You lie, cheat, steal, and are easily defeated because you lack the spine to fight. This is your history now. We’re grateful Allah gave us the opportunity to show the world how to defeat the Infidels.
We look forward to seeing you again across the battlefield.
Praise be to God,
If you’ve read this far. Thank you. I’ve spent the past week trying to find a way to communicate this to the American people in a manner that would cause anger, rage, action, and understanding. Writing in the voice of a Taliban felt right.
If this made you angry, cry, or contemplative--then our goal is achieved. Our hope is that it inspires you to take action with your elected officials. They’ve been repeating the same failing playbook since World War II with your sons, daughters, and tax dollars. If you want this to keep happening, do nothing. If you don’t, then do something. If we all do a little, together we do a lot.
About the Authors:
Matthew Griffin is a 2001 United States Military Academy Graduate, Army Ranger, Combat Veteran with the 75th Ranger Regiment (3x Afghanistan, 1x Iraq), CEO of Combat Flip Flops, author, and 2019 Henry Crown Fellow with the Aspen Global Leadership Institute.
Scott Chapman is a 2000 Murray State University Graduate, Army Ranger Fire Team Leader from Alpha Company 2/75th Rangers (‘01 - ‘05), OGA Blackwater Alumni, entrepreneur, and author. Combat Veteran ( 21x Afghanistan, 1x Iraq)
I think you are thinking of the GlobalHawk or the Predator Drones most talk about. This is essentially a portable one which can be launched from a catapult and then recovered and prepped for another launch. It is much smaller than the ones we fly remotely from the US or other strategic bases.
I do think they will probably turn those over to the chinese, who already have similar tech. I highly doubt we were giving the ANA any of our more recent classified technology.
It looks like we have an AC130 Gunship on the way to Afghanistan as the sun sets over there.
Also it looks like we have had one of our Signal Intelligence aircraft over Kabul for the last several hours.
It’s wild how Kabul fell exactly like Mosul
I keep going back to the decision to close Bagram and how that played a part in this. I have to think it played a huge part.
The ability of our forces to provide close air support to Afghanistan forces is so much more difficult when the closest airfield is in Qatar rather than right outside Kabul. The fact we left and really didn't tell anyone about it, I would expect would contribute to the feeling that the US was done. I think that one decision spiraled out of control and while the ANA might have held out for longer and fought harder if they believed American support was close and could be counted on if the shit hit the fan. When we left, so did that confidence that help was coming. Add in the fact that there is a history of corruption and the idea that a lot of the surrenders had been negotiated months ago, and it was a time bomb.
That is my question as to why the military didn't act sooner to get their people out. From reports I am reading there has not been much urgency within the military towards getting those who assisted them, out of the country and out of harms way. Apparently several military leaders at the Pentagon saw this collapse coming, and if they did, why weren't they sounding the alarms to get those who supported them, out of harms way?
BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE. That wasn't any part of the mission. It never is. That's not how the American, or any empire, works. Take take what you want and exploit the native population. That's it.
This could easily be a tweet from the late 90s.
Did anyone ask him if five more years would have helped?
There’s also a Roman Reigns joke in there for those that get it…
Not a big deal, Scan Eagles are built with civilian off-the-shelf parts for the most part and they crash all the time, so they’ve already seen plenty of them.
Scans were initially built for commercial deep ocean fishing. Pretty much anyone can buy one.
They’re flown by line of sight, so the pilots usually operate from a trailer or ship nearby.