Libertarian Thread

Discussion in 'The Mainboard' started by Rumpus StillStiff, Jun 28, 2016.

  1. Bo Pelinis

    Bo Pelinis WE GO HARD ON EARTH
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    Like, how can you tell black people their plight is their fault as a race when my parents were in high school when the supreme court finally decided interracial marriage should be legal.
     
  2. Spike 80DF

    Spike 80DF Too Much Bama In Me
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    I'd say that my current views are some sort of left-libertarian/anarchist/socialist/communist mish-mash that I'm sorting through. In my ideal world there would be no state or any hierarchies of power at all. Mutual aid is an amazing thing. That June-July stretch last year was a very radicalizing time for me.

    From Bakunin: "we are convinced that liberty without socialism is privilege and injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality"
     
  3. Spike 80DF

    Spike 80DF Too Much Bama In Me
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    My friend's mom (almost 60) told us that growing up, her mom told her not to drink after black people at a water fountain because she would get sick. It's fucked up and so very recent.

    Again, it's getting past the waspy, entititled idea that America is or ever was anything resembling a meritocracy
     
  4. Bo Pelinis

    Bo Pelinis WE GO HARD ON EARTH
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    In 8:46 Dave Chappelle talks about how his father yelled out for his grandmother on his deathbed. His grandmother had been a slave. This is all recent. as. fuck.
     
  5. Bo Pelinis

    Bo Pelinis WE GO HARD ON EARTH
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    Prob closest to Bern (dem soc) at this point which would be moderate left in the rest of the developed world.
     
  6. Butthead

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    I'm fiscally conservative and socially liberal ama
     
  7. Iron Mickey

    Iron Mickey is this thing on?
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    socialism and fascism are the same-same
     
  8. ShuPoor

    ShuPoor I'm covered in cat hair, but I still smell good
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    That is an ultra galaxy brained post
     
  9. AlternativeFactsRule

    AlternativeFactsRule Mmm ... Coconuts
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    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism
     
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  10. Rabid

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    I’m not sure what point you’re making. Libertarians are very much for criminal justice reform and Amash, who was a sitting LP Congressman, teamed with Ayanna Presley to introduce a Bill to end Qualified Immunity.
     
  11. Iron Mickey

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    CJ reform and for-profit prisons are incompatible.
     
  12. AlternativeFactsRule

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    I agree that Libertarians should support the BLM movement. Whether or not self-described Libertarians actually do says quite a bit about them and their politics.
     
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  13. Rabid

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    I wouldn’t even care to argue for private prisons.
     
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  14. ShuPoor

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    Had a libertarian I work with defend the family separation policy because the undocumented immigrants weren't respecting property rights or some shit. Probably not a real libertarian
     
  15. AlternativeFactsRule

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    “Stealing your child is an appropriate punishment for trespassing”

    - Ludwig von Mises
     
  16. wes tegg

    wes tegg I'm a Guy's guy, guys.
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    Well, then I guess he hasn’t changed. You got me.
     
  17. Lyrtch

    Lyrtch My second favorite meat is hamburger
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    libertarian to fascism pipeline is basically a bullet train at this point
     
  18. Iron Mickey

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    ...how do you square that with believing that self-interest and profit-seeking generate the greatest common good?
     
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  19. Rabid

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    I’d be curious the angle he took. Libertarians tend to be for open borders or you could frame it as opposed to governments limiting the will of people to move freely. Closed borders are clearly an impediment to liberty.
     
  20. Rabid

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    I’m not sure what you mean by self-interest, or who’s self-interest. A prison can only imprison people with the power of the state.

    I don’t have as strong of an objection to private prison as you do but I wouldn’t call myself a proponent. Admittedly, I worry more about the part of the justice system that arrests and convicts people than after conviction so I don’t have a particularly strong opinion on prisons or who runs them.
     
  21. Bo Pelinis

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    The problem is the lobbying by private prisons on laws that put people in them.
     
  22. Rabid

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    I understand the argument for the conflict of interest that it can pose. Frankly, that says more about our confidence in politicians than anything else but I acknowledge the concern.

    It just isn’t high on my personal worries list so I don’t have a strong opinion.
     
  23. BudKilmer

    BudKilmer Well-Known Member
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    :roll:


    Being a libertarian while framing shit like this might be the most intellectually dishonest thing I’ve ever seen
     
  24. *DIESEL*

    *DIESEL* Half man, half amazing
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    As a libertarian, do you believe in private police forces as well? For-profit fire departments?
     
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  25. Bo Pelinis

    Bo Pelinis WE GO HARD ON EARTH
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    Also environmental protection
     
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  26. AIOLICOCK

    AIOLICOCK https://www.antifa.org/
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    When people are shocked to hear I consider myself to be a communist, I explain to them that from my perspective the imminent climate disaster that results in a refugee crisis that numbers in the billions will go one of two ways. Either humanity will adjust the way we manages our resources to create a more equitable society, or the sum of human death, disease, and misery is going to be staggering.
     
  27. Iron Mickey

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    Rational self interest, the foundation of libertarianism.
     
  28. Rabid

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    No. Those would be very primary roles of local government.
     
  29. Iron Mickey

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    Your platform is Liberty and you aren’t concerned that there is a system that incentivizes caging human beings?
     
  30. AIOLICOCK

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    Well, in his defense it disproportionately cages poor and brown human beings :twocents:
     
  31. Rabid

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    I said I’m less concerned with who manages the cages than the process before that.
     
  32. Iron Mickey

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    Ok, but arguably in both the Marxist and Libertarian worldview there’s nothing more powerful than financial incentives, and you’re ostensibly fine with organizing society around those, including the process by which human beings are locked in cages, often forever.
     
  33. Redav

    Redav One big ocean
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    Being less concerned with justice kind of is libertarianism in a nutshell
     
  34. Rabid

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    Your characterization of financial incentives being all powerful is more economic theory than anything. It isn’t specific to or necessary for libertarianism. Individual autonomy is an end on to itself.

    As far as private prisons, I see your point for how it can miscarry justice. I don’t disagree. I just haven’t spent a lot of time thinking about it because I’m not a politician that needs a position on everything or someone that needs to solve all the world’s problems. You aren’t going to trick me in to supporting it because you want to argue against it.

    Yes, I want a smaller government but that wouldn’t be by outsourcing functions like prisons, cops or fire dept as mentioned above. I would focus more on things like shrinking the military to be less interventional.
     
  35. Rabid

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    Why are people like this and can’t see or assume good faith in others? I mean that is really a zinger. Way to get a few token likes instead of trying to have a conversation where you can learn something about people with different views than your own and enrich your life.
     
  36. Redav

    Redav One big ocean
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    I'm very concerned with freedoms except for prisons, who's purpose for existence is to limit freedoms. I have no position on that.

    ^I'm sorry for finding this ridiculous
     
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  37. Fran Tarkenton

    Fran Tarkenton Well-Known Member
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    its hard to see good faith in efforts by those who both sides'd the January 6th Insurrectionists to well...anybody.
     
  38. Iron Mickey

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    Not to be a dick, really, but you might want to look into the history of this philosophy, particularly its American form.
     
  39. Redav

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    Ok you added more to this post. I'm all ears for why you aren't concerned about mass incarceration as a person who is very concerned with freedoms
     
    #1739 Redav, May 20, 2021
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
  40. Rabid

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    What? The only sitting Libertarian Congressman voted for impeachment, twice. Here is his Twitter from Jan 6.

    9736A4C2-19BA-4E9B-8933-B21F86FA79C7.png
     
  41. ShuPoor

    ShuPoor I'm covered in cat hair, but I still smell good
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    Oof, Rand Paul has lost official real Libertarian status
     
  42. Redav

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    :tumbleweed:
     
  43. Rabid

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    I agree with the problem of mass incarceration. I put the source of the problem more on the politicians responding to citizens desires to be tough on crime than because a company is lobbying for harsher sentences. I believe it would still be a problem if the prisons were all government operated.
     
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  44. Redav

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    But studies show private prisons lead to harsher sentences and higher incarceration rates
     
  45. Rabid

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    Do you have one? I’m open to the idea lobbying has more influence than I expect. Private prisons tend to be more on the state than Federal level so they should be able to get good comparisons across the country.

    To frame how I think about it in a different way, ICE contracts with private prison companies for its detention centers. However, I view Trump’s immigration policy as the way it was not because of lobbying from detention centers but because he was a monster that could sell xenophobia to populists.
     
  46. Iron Mickey

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    https://www.jstor.org/stable/25755754?seq=1
     
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  47. Rabid

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  48. Redav

    Redav One big ocean
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  49. Iron Mickey

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    Sorry, I’ll try to pull the PDF when I’m back on desktop.
     
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  50. Rabid

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    Thanks. My only hesitancy when reading that is which is causal. Are the sentences more frequent and longer because of lobbying/corruption or do the states wrongly believe more, and longer, harsher sentences prevent crime and private prisons allow them to add capacity with lower capital expense on the front end? I would think you could do studies of state prison capacity as well as prisoner years (number of prisoners and sentence length) and control that by crime rates to get a good indication how the variables interact.

    But that report does get to the point that it may be a corruption problem with representatives or judges taking money for longer sentences and that was what I said was my bigger worry (the justice system that arrests and sentences people).
     
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