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Discussion in 'Game of Thrones (ASOIAF)' started by Aegon the Conqueror, Jun 29, 2011.
don't they blame tywin for ordering clegane to murder the babies
of course, but that's my point. that was towards the end of the war. i took his question as why did the dornish continue to support the targaryens after rhaegar ran off with lyanna. but if he was asking why they support them in the present, then yea it's definitely because they hate the lannisters and want revenge.
Yeah, the whole point of backing the Targaryeans is to get back at Tywin, but that still doesn't fully make sense to me. I get being pissed at Tywin for ordering Shitty AMC Show of your grandchildren in a violent way, I just don't get the methodology other than a "eh, the cheating and starting a war that straight up demeans our daughter is outweighed by the brutal killing of our grandchildren" or "we hate the Lannisters and this is the most probable way of revenge".
Both then and now.
I think I read somewhere that Elia was kept in Kings Landing to act as a hostage, much like Jamie
the Targaryens could never fully conquer Dorne like they did the other kingdoms - so they made them allies.
Been re-reading GOT and got a bit confused. Why did Varys report that Dany was pregnant? He brought it to the small council and had Mormont not stopped it she would have been killed. Was he not Team Daenerys from the jump?
Varys' actions in aGoT have always seemed inconsistent to me.
that said, I believe he was always on team fAegon. the means to that end through Viserys and Dany is what confuses me though.
I mean he basically put a hit out on her
He had a job to do and couldn't have Robert found out through other channels that she was pregnant. regardless of what he thinks is best for the realm he still looks out for his own neck first and looks to try and rectify things once he's in the clear. (similar to what happened when Tyrion got black balled for Joffery murder)
Imagine if Robert Baratheon found out from somebody else that she was pregnant. He has a job to do if he wants to stay in his position of power. He also could have very well warned Jorah what the assassination attempt would be for him to foil it and gain a closer position by Dany's side.
Look forward to rereading that part to see if that's a possibility. I hate that I'm having trouble separating the show from the books. Thus the reread.
....or GRRM just fucked up and didn't realize that major inconsistency when he decided to introduce fAegon out of nowhere.
Doubtful. I know he intended on having the series much shorter initially but George is the master of detail. Honestly, it makes a lot of sense since Varys is clearly team fAegon/Iron Bank.
I still think that fAegon felt rushed and injected into the story awkwardly.
team varys warned jorah
So in doing my re-read it occurs to me as odd that the kings guard would try to kill Ned at the ToJ. I mean, presumably rhaegar ordered them to protect his new baby mama but why would she need to be protected against her brother?
they were fighting a war against one another.
War was over right?
I don't think they had any knowledge of the war being over... And, in any case, they were sworn to protect Lyanna through Rhaegar... Their loyalty to Rhaegar especially meant that there was no way they wouldn't stand guard over her to their death unless the order came from him or the Mad King...
They knew rhaegar was dead, the mad king was dead and storms end siege had been broken. They also knew that Ned is lyanna's brother. Who are they protecting her from?
The straw that broke the camel's back was Lyanna running off with Rhaegar... Now, the north believed she had been kidnapped against her will by Rhaegar.... The Kingsguard was loyal to Rhaegar and as such protected her as though she was a princess and her son was Rhaegar's son... Rhaegar's son at the Tower of Joy has the #1 claim to the Iron Throne by lineage... For all they knew, Ned would take her back to the north and kill the baby to end the line of succession (see the other royal offspring)...
EDIT: not sure what the succession rule is with Lyanna's child but the son of the first born heir is under threat from any usurper.
I guess that makes sense but it's a bit weak story telling. Hopefully when we see the toj reveal it will become clearer.
1. they didn't know that
2. even if they did, they were never going to bend the knee to Robert.
Shocker is right. They were there to protect Jon and not necessarily Lyanna.
They definitely knew the war was over, guys. Go back and re-read the exchange between them and Ned.
They know about The Kingslayer, the Battle Of The Trident, all of that shit.
“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”
Are they aware that those things have happened, or, is Ned telling them for the first time and they are just unbelievably awesome and taking it all in stride?
In any case, I don't think I've ever read a sequence in fiction as well written and perfect as Ned's recollection of the TOJ.
Makes you a little mad when the author spends 16 pages on dinner at a inn in the Riverlands, but a sequence with at least three of the most awesome characters and possibly the biggest reveal in his universe receives two pages of attention.
exactly. even if Rhaegar is dead and they know it they would still carry out that oath to their own death.
that's why they were awesome and the Kingsguard now sucks.
Agreed with the latter but trying to kill the one person most likely to protect the heir seems a bit short sided at best. At worst idiocy. I've read each book many times and this is the first time this occurred to me though. Also, why Ned shows up with just six companions struck me as odd. Maybe just to travel fast? Maybe I'm just over thinking.
I don't understand what you expected to happen? do you think Ned was going to sit down with them over some tea and come up with a plan to protect Jon? they were Kingsguard and Ned was the first lieutenant in the revolt that killed the king and his heir they were sworn to protect. there was only one way that was ending for them. they swore an oath and they were prepared to see it out to the end.
also have to remember that Ned was barely 20 during this; his reputation as one of the most honorable men in the seven kingdoms hadn't truly spread yet. They had no idea who they were dealing with & you're not just going to hand over the heir you're sworn to protect to a man of unknown honor.
To them, and just about everyone else it seems, an oath is more important than anything else... Jaime is basically reviled everywhere for killing a tyrant/maniac... Even Ned calls him "Kingslayer" despite the fact that he killed the man responsible for murdering members of his own family (and violently is has to be said)...
The three lay out exactly why they are going to fight in the brief conversation...
"Our knees do not bend easily"
-Just because their King and Prince lay dead, that does not mean their oath is over... They were sworn to protect Lyanna... They did so on Rhaegar's orders, or presumably so... They swore an oath to him and the news Ned brings with him makes no difference to them so long as Lyanna and her son live.
"Aerys would yet sit the throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."
-Their oath is what matters to them... Not right or wrong, not whatever is to their advantage... Their oath is to protect Aerys and the royal family until the end of their days... There is no other way out for any true member of the Kingsguard, which is why they directly reference their "false" brother.
I guess I just would have assumed that they would have been in the ToJ with Lyana prior to going out to meet Ned. Seems like she might have said something like "your only hope to protect my son would be through Ned." Maybe she was already to sick but they had been hanging out for months. When they heard about rhaegar, kings landing, the eacape to dragonstone and storms end seems not unlikely that they were starting to talk about how to protect the heir as opposed to just dying. If rhaegar married her shes the queen regent, if jon is a bastard shes still thought to be a willing lover (at least by my fav theories) and a willful Lady she would have been at least part of the conversation. Hmmm...Assuming that grrm didn't just not think it through I'd say that potentially she really was a prisoner. Never thought that before.
If they were simplistic robots (or simple characters) yes but its way more goofy than hating Jaime for killing the king. I always thought of Dayne as highly intelligent as well as honorable and a badass. I'd guess that ur probably right about grrms intent and it does add to the mystique of the story but it just seems questionable. If jon does turn out to be a bastard rape baby does robs declaration still make him a target king? #teamjontherapebaby
More likely that Rhaegar married Lyanna and made her his second wife like Aegon and Maegor did before him. Which would make Jon a legitimate Targaryen.
Thought that originally but then the queen regent would have most likely have said "u will not kill my lil brother."
She wouldn't be the queen regent either. Still would have been Rhaella(sp?) who was still alive and on Dragonstone at this time.
Think you are way overthinking this. Their loyalty and oaths were sworn to the King and his Prince, and those dudes were going to die before questioning them or moving on. It was literally spelled out in the book
Probably. Like I said, first ten times through the books, I never noticed it. Just struck me as odd
Lyanna and Jon weren't at the ToJ they were at Starfall. 3 kingsguard had taken them there and then headed back to King's Landing/set up shop at the ToJ waiting for a group like Ned and his buddies. Ned and Howland then went to Starfall to return Dawn and/or with Dayne's last words were told that's where Lyanna was, when they came upon Lyanna in her bed of blood. The Dayne's respected Ned so much for burying the Sword of the Morning and returning Dawn they named the heir to Starfall, Eddard-who was a milkbrother with Jon... imhv
Jon wasn't very high in the line of succession even if he is a recognized son of Rhaegar, the Mad King named Viserys his heir before he was killed by Jaime Lannister and maybe even before Rhaegar was killed.
I've watched too many Preston Jacobs videos and spent too much time nerding out on ASOIAF, book 6 needs to be done asap.
These theories are certainly the product of too much time between books. This theory does nothing to improve the plot. Plus the fact that Ned can hear Lyanna yelling at the tower.
2-It would explain how 2 men were able to care for a newborn while crossing Dorne as well as a reason to return Dawn to Starfall
3-I don't remember Ned hearing that but I do remember him dreaming that "they" found him passed out by his sister. Unless he got to see Lyanna before the 7 on 3 fight there was no they.
It's in the Tower of Joy dream:
No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.
At this point, there's no way R+L=J isn't true. J=AA can be debated but I think there's a strong chance it's true. There's also a strong chance Jon is legitimate with all the bastard talk in the foreground.
Honestly, I think when Dany learns that her one 'nephew' has taken the throne while the other nephew has amassed a northern army and is gaining power, it will be the breaking point for her and she will snap, finally heading to Westeros with blood and a throne on her mind.
If Aegon takes Kings Landing, my god... I'll be so fired up.
I like to think he will take the throne with relative ease... But when Dorne finds out he's a Blackfyre or a fake, he won't be able to keep it very long without their support.
I think they see him as legitimate and back him, which will help him take the throne easily as you suggested... And then, you have what's left of the Lannisters led by Jaime, Jon in the north, Littlefinger, and Dany...